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  #1  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:19 AM
Wariat Wariat is offline
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Default Question about Tor browser

I heard that the Tor browser caches images and videos to RAM (like embedded stuff from websites whether .onion or.com) is this true? Also, can that info still be seen by someone with forensic software later? Like if you saw embedded images you didnt want to see as thumbnails but never clicked on them or downloaded them. Can that info still be there with Encave or be somehow found on the RAM? Like is there a way for someone to access the Tor browser cache after it is closed? Like lets say you went to Website informer and would the embedded images showing previews of websites you never actually went into be somehow accessible later?

Last edited by Wariat; 04-12-2013 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:56 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Yeah they will find your CP
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  #3  
Old 04-12-2013, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

I do not look at CP nor want to. This was about some hacking and credit card hack sites I came across through website informer.

Last edited by Wariat; 04-12-2013 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
I heard that the Tor browser caches images and videos to RAM (like embedded stuff from websites whether .onion or.com) is this true? Also, can that info still be seen by someone with forensic software later?
Yes and yes. Using anything saves cached content of some sort. Images/videos will copy to RAM and sort of "hidden" places on your hard drive... Places where emptying your recycling bin, a basic PC cleanup, etc. will not fully delete them. Local police or feds could easily use some software to salvage deleted files (hell, even teachers can do this on high school computers, I've seen them do it). Even a basic hard drive format may not fully get rid of certain cached content.

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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
Like if you saw embedded images you didnt want to see as thumbnails but never clicked on them or downloaded them. Can that info still be there with Encave or be somehow found on the RAM? Like is there a way for someone to access the Tor browser cache after it is closed? Like lets say you went to Website informer and would the embedded images showing previews of websites you never actually went into be somehow accessible later?
Again, just about everything you do is cached somewhere on your system hard drive or memory. When you open a page, intended or not, it saves that to your hard drive, cached thumbnails, html and all. Tor only provides a certain level of anonymity, the rest is on you. You can use something to wipe clean space on your hard drive (to make sure the images are fully deleted) and you can get things to wipe RAM. Usually apps like this are one in the same. All of them take quite a bit of time depending how many times you wipe your hard drive.

I know of CCleaner (for Windows) and Bleachbit (for Linux) which do both of these things. There is also the DBAN live CD which will format your hard drive and wipe it clean multiple times. I use this when selling a hard drive or computer. Then there is also disk encryption.

Tor is just a portable Firefox + an anonymity layer, it can't help you if you mismanage files and don't clean up after Tor.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

But I am not talking about a standard firefox browser with Tor button, but the Tor browser. Plus, even the firefox browser: cant you delete the cache and temp int files manually? Also, I am glad to be on a Mac then if what you say is true. The Mac automatically has tools to delete unallocated space in the disk utility. Mac OS X is so nice you can even delete files automatically with shredding by holding down command in the trash and clicking "secure delete." Mac also has no registry.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

You guys wanna know whats funny, I looked up this question on Google and before I realized it I was getting an explanation from some fag boychat site. I freaked because I didnt google this through Tor browser but my other opened browser and didnt even look at the URLs before clicking on the sites answering my question via google. Google "Tor browser torrent cache" if you dont believe me.
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Old 04-12-2013, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
But I am not talking about a standard firefox browser with Tor button, but the Tor browser.
Tor browser = Firefox browser. Tor browser is just Firefox with Tor modded in to it. There is literally otherwise no difference. So Tor is the same as any other browser out there.

As for the Mac OS X part, I have only used it a few times back in high school. Probably same with any other OS though, there will be a cache of it left over. According to alternativeto.net, CCleaner is also for Mac OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
cant you delete the cache and temp int files manually?
You can but this only deletes it from your temporary folders. It still stays copied to memory and hidden elsewhere on your hard drive. I believe Mac OS uses swap space for virtual memory like Linux and other Unix-like OSes do, so technically it could temporarily be stored there as well. That secure-delete feature sounds nice, but you may want to check how reliable it is if you want to thoroughly delete something (it's probably good enough but I've never heard of it so don't take my word for it). If you delete it like that that and wipe free space and memory, you should be good. It'll delete any Tor leftovers

Last edited by Ironclad; 04-12-2013 at 06:48 AM. Reason: Grammar fix.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironclad View Post
Yes and yes. Using anything saves cached content of some sort. Images/videos will copy to RAM and sort of "hidden" places on your hard drive... Places where emptying your recycling bin, a basic PC cleanup, etc. will not fully delete them. Local police or feds could easily use some software to salvage deleted files (hell, even teachers can do this on high school computers, I've seen them do it). Even a basic hard drive format may not fully get rid of certain cached content.
This is fear mongering. TBB only caches to RAM. That memory is deallocated when you close the browser and totally gone when you restart.

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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
You guys wanna know whats funny, I looked up this question on Google and before I realized it I was getting an explanation from some fag boychat site. I freaked because I didnt google this through Tor browser but my other opened browser and didnt even look at the URLs before clicking on the sites answering my question via google. Google "Tor browser torrent cache" if you dont believe me.
Yeah, but boychat is a clearweb site, not illegal content, no worries. People need to chill out about "how secure is Tor herp derp". If your dumb ass is going to jail it's not because Tor is insecure, it's because you did something stupid.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Using CCleaner with 7 passes (minimum) is your best bet to clean your hd. I think if you were to use 21 passes however...
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Using CCleaner with 7 passes (minimum) is your best bet to clean your hd. I think if you were to use 21 passes however...
No, don't use CCleaner with any number of passes. It's not relevant and "x number of passes" is just market jargon. Fucking pseudo-experts .
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Buy a computer just for CP.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

The only way they could get to your RAM is if they somehow got it right after you shut off your computer and froze it with liquid nitrogen. At least I think that's how the process goes, if memory serves me right. This is a highly unlikely scenario, keep in mind. Especially for someone who "accidentally" went to some unsavory part of the deep web via Tor.

The swap space thing is something to be worried about, but if you really want to feel ultra safe about using Tor, I'd just boot via a Linux CD without a hard drive plugged in. That way there's nowhere for anything to be stored except for the RAM, which is regularly cleared by design.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
This is fear mongering. TBB only caches to RAM. That memory is deallocated when you close the browser and totally gone when you restart.
I didn't know it was totally gone when you restart, but that wasn't the overall point of what I was getting at... Just that it's hidden in places that most people don't understand, and that Tor doesn't provide that level of security like many people seem to think it does.

Would you disagree that it could end up elsewhere on your hard drive after you delete it? I've seen files like that be salvaged after a "full delete" before. And what about the swap space (I have no idea how OS X handles that on restart)?

BUT, to OP, you don't necessarily need to do any of this. I mean, accidentally clicking a link to some sketchy shit will not get you arrested unless you're "accidentally" repeatedly going to CP or terrorist sites. lol. Nuking your hard drive would only be for shit that could really be used against you. This is not that serious, at all.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Tor by itself isn't adequate security. Should be seen more as just a tool to get to certain parts of the web. You need anonymous VPN, etc.

If you want to be sure, put the profile directory for the Tor browser in a ramdisk and only do your business from a Linux installation to a USB drive, or something along those lines. Something easily thrown into the fireplace when you hear the pounding at the door, don't you know. Leave HDD entirely out of the picture; don't risk being behind on the latest forensics or underestimating what they can do. Bonus points if you don't even *have* magnetic storage in the machine you're using for this.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

So if the cache goes to ram and is reset when the browser is restarted does the old cache totally dissapear or does it go to unallocated space? Also, if you sign up to a forum from tor and use tor mail can you say anything you want like admit to a crime or post photoshop pics of an old enemy without anyone being able to track you down or if you sign up on clearnet forums with a username and password is there risk of ip discovery? I know the endpoint node can see the username and password but can they see anything else? And is it in real time or how would they be able to see what you entered in after logging out of any email or firum? Ayway sorry for so many questions.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
This is fear mongering. TBB only caches to RAM. That memory is deallocated when you close the browser and totally gone when you restart.
When you restart the browser or restart the computer?

Last edited by Wariat; 04-12-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Encrypt your hard drive.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
Tor by itself isn't adequate security. Should be seen more as just a tool to get to certain parts of the web. You need anonymous VPN, etc.

If you want to be sure, put the profile directory for the Tor browser in a ramdisk and only do your business from a Linux installation to a USB drive, or something along those lines. Something easily thrown into the fireplace when you hear the pounding at the door, don't you know. Leave HDD entirely out of the picture; don't risk being behind on the latest forensics or underestimating what they can do. Bonus points if you don't even *have* magnetic storage in the machine you're using for this.
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  #19  
Old 04-12-2013, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Ironclad View Post
BUT, to OP, you don't necessarily need to do any of this. I mean, accidentally clicking a link to some sketchy shit will not get you arrested unless you're "accidentally" repeatedly going to CP or terrorist sites. lol. Nuking your hard drive would only be for shit that could really be used against you. This is not that serious, at all.
To tell the truth it may be more serious. I will tell you what it is. Go to this thread I made:
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=270763

I uploaded some images of Polish hooligans through Tor and you can see the thumbnails on the thread. One of the images (the first I believe) has a very strange image that tinypic.com listed under it when you click on it that says "other similar images" or something like that (havent checked again). I never uploaded that other image or had anything to do with it but it looked like a nakid chick until you look closer to see it may be a young naked chick. i am not going to tell you whether I clicked on it or not but it seems quite sketchy. I have no idea how it got on tinypic.com or how it got associated with my hooligan pic other than the tor ip that i uploaded with was the same as the person who uploaded that pic.

Last edited by Wariat; 04-12-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
To tell the truth it may be more serious. I will tell you what it is. Go to this thread I made:
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=270763

I uploaded some images of Polish hooligans through Tor and you can see the thumbnails on the thread. One of the images (the first I believe) has a very strange image that tinypic.com listed under it when you click on it that says "other similar images" or something like that (havent checked again). I never uploaded that other image or had anything to do with it but it looked like a nakid chick until you look closer to see it may be a young naked chick. i am not going to tell you whether I clicked on it or not but it seems quite sketchy. I have no idea how it got on tinypic.com or how it got associated with my hooligan pic other than the tor ip that i uploaded with was the same as the person who uploaded that pic.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Ironclad View Post
I didn't know it was totally gone when you restart, but that wasn't the overall point of what I was getting at... Just that it's hidden in places that most people don't understand, and that Tor doesn't provide that level of security like many people seem to think it does.
But isn't using just tor, they're using the TBB which means there are no files saved in "hidden places" (whatever that means).

Quote:
Would you disagree that it could end up elsewhere on your hard drive after you delete it? I've seen files like that be salvaged after a "full delete" before. And what about the swap space (I have no idea how OS X handles that on restart)?
Again, no files touch the disk unless they're explicitly saved by the user. 100% of the TBB cache is in RAM.

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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
Tor by itself isn't adequate security. Should be seen more as just a tool to get to certain parts of the web. You need anonymous VPN, etc.
A VPN between you and Tor is pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
So if the cache goes to ram and is reset when the browser is restarted does the old cache totally dissapear or does it go to unallocated space?
When you close your browser the RAM it was using is deallocated, meaning the data is still technically in memory but not easy to get to. As your computer allocates space for other programs (it constantly does) that get over written. RAM can not hold a charge without electricity input, so as soon as you turn your computer off that data is 100% gone forever, unrecoverable by any means.

Quote:
Also, if you sign up to a forum from tor and use tor mail can you say anything you want like admit to a crime or post photoshop pics of an old enemy without anyone being able to track you down or if you sign up on clearnet forums with a username and password is there risk of ip discovery?
Ugh. I'm about to tell you that tor is Safe Enough™. You're going to think that Safe Enough™ isn't actually safe enough because you're paranoid and then you're going to do something stupid like take the advice of someone recommending a VPN or something that will probably make you more vulnerable to technical attack. Don't do that.

Tor is Safe Enough™. That is to say a technical attack against the tor network is too expensive for anyone but first world governments to pull off, and then the prize is so miniscule to the expense of said attack than there is a 0% chance of someone performing a successful technical attack against you. You have a higher chance of being arrested/assassinated because you were mistaken for a mob hitman than you do of something bad happening as a consequence of your identity being revealed via tor. That statement would remain true if you were an infant or something.

Tor does not protect you from your own idiocy however. You mentioned boards. Registered with the same distinctive handle on a Tor board and a clearnet board? That compromises you (a little bit). That's not a technical attack, there is no software product to protect you from that. In this domain (non-technical) a little paranoia may be warranted.

Quote:
I know the endpoint node can see the username and password but can they see anything else? And is it in real time or how would they be able to see what you entered in after logging out of any email or firum? Ayway sorry for so many questions.
No, exit nodes know nothing more about you than exactly the data you send them. Exit nodes know the node before them but no further back in the chain. The same is true for all nodes, but only exit nodes can see message content. Tor works in "real time", in the sense that the data from you goes to its destination without stopping anywhere, it just has to go a long fucking way and takes ages. So "real time" means like the unbarable 8 second latency you get all over the place. Tor services could really benefit from tech like data uris, but that's another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
When you restart the browser or restart the computer?
Restart the computer.

Last edited by Lanny; 04-13-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2013, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Given I have it on good but anecdotal authority that ISPs run relays in cooperation with law enforcement, does it not seem prudent to make the connection to the Tor network more indirect? Seems like something that can't hurt and might help.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Even if ISPs did run malicious nodes (which is honestly something I really doubt) it wouldn't compromise the network unless they controlled a majority of the nodes, which they don't. All a VPN does is add more latency to the already painfully slow network.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Even if ISPs did run malicious nodes (which is honestly something I really doubt) it wouldn't compromise the network unless they controlled a majority of the nodes, which they don't. All a VPN does is add more latency to the already painfully slow network.
When I did questonable things, I used a VPN and tor and the 2 proxies tor allows.

It was just parononia, and thats what alcohol which wtardals does to you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by FatMax View Post
When I did questonable things, I used a VPN and tor and the 2 proxies tor allows.

It was just parononia, and thats what alcohol which wtardals does to you.
Don't forget surfing the deepweb with a gram or two of chronic in you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:19 AM
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Don't forget surfing the deepweb with a gram or two of chronic in you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
But isn't using just tor, they're using the TBB which means there are no files saved in "hidden places" (whatever that means).


Again, no files touch the disk unless they're explicitly saved by the user. 100% of the TBB cache is in RAM.
So there are no cached images or anything on your disk when you browse? Bullshit.

And when I say hidden places, I can't find the thread now, but it was about what OP described... Using some forensic software to bring back images after they've been deleted. Maybe for that it has to be saved- which they just mentioned they had uploaded some images, so yes, I'm pretty sure that still applies then... Even though I still don't think what they did is serious enough for them to have their computer searched. I think the TAILS and TC responses would solve their problems anyways. Just being hypothetical, not "fear mongering" people.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

I am confused who or what case you are talking about?

"Maybe for that it has to be saved- which they just mentioned they had uploaded some images, so yes, I'm pretty sure that still applies then..."

Applies then to them being on the tor cache or regular browser cache or actually right click and saved on the hard drive?
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
I am confused who or what case you are talking about?

"Maybe for that it has to be saved- which they just mentioned they had uploaded some images, so yes, I'm pretty sure that still applies then..."

Applies then to them being on the tor cache or regular browser cache or actually right click and saved on the hard drive?
Encrypt your drive, download tails, run a live version on a USB.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
I am confused who or what case you are talking about?

"Maybe for that it has to be saved- which they just mentioned they had uploaded some images, so yes, I'm pretty sure that still applies then..."

Applies then to them being on the tor cache or regular browser cache or actually right click and saved on the hard drive?
Well, Lanny was saying you would have had to save it to the hard drive for it to be cached on your disk, but I don't think that's the case. He says it is all in memory which is deallocated, I thought it leaves cached images on your hard drive. Maybe I am wrong though.

777th post. :3

Last edited by Ironclad; 04-13-2013 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:

Tor is Safe Enough™. That is to say a technical attack against the tor network is too expensive for anyone but first world governments to pull off, and then the prize is so miniscule to the expense of said attack than there is a 0% chance of someone performing a successful technical attack against you. You have a higher chance of being arrested/assassinated because you were mistaken for a mob hitman than you do of something bad happening as a consequence of your identity being revealed via tor. That statement would remain true if you were an infant or something.
yeah I don't know about that...
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

It seems that the Mac is the most secure operating system ro defeat dorensics and comes with shredding software and features built-in while Windows crap like evidence eliminator is snake oil that has failed onnumerous occasions(read about that newspaper exec trying it and still being arrested some years back):

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/...t-1222632.html
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  #33  
Old 04-15-2013, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
It seems that the Mac is the most secure operating system ro defeat dorensics and comes with shredding software and features built-in while Windows crap like evidence eliminator is snake oil that has failed onnumerous occasions(read about that newspaper exec trying it and still being arrested some years back):

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/...t-1222632.html
Jesus Christ. The stupidity in this thread is getting higher with each post.
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Lanny (04-17-2013)
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:20 PM
Wariat Wariat is offline
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Evidence eliminator sucks and was uselessand isout of date anyway so what other snake oil do Windows user rely on now since it failed like this:

http://radsoft.net/news/20060808,00.shtml
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:34 PM
Wariat Wariat is offline
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

I dont think they can go after you for having it in your deleted cache anyway can they? Not that I do or would just hypothetically speaking if you ran into it or erotica by accident.

http://www.btlj.org/data/articles/19_04_02.pdf

http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/ncjrl/p...ur%20Honor.pdf

http://www.metnews.com/articles/2006/kuch112806.htm

Last edited by Wariat; 04-15-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:32 AM
Lanny Lanny is offline
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Lol, who the fuck would use a software product called "evidence eliminator"?
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iMagiNation (04-17-2013)
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:45 AM
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Grin Re: Question about Tor browser

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Lol, who the fuck would use a software product called "evidence eliminator"?
some 60 year old trying to get rid of his porn.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wariat View Post
It seems that the Mac is the most secure operating system ro defeat dorensics and comes with shredding software and features built-in while Windows crap like evidence eliminator is snake oil that has failed onnumerous occasions(read about that newspaper exec trying it and still being arrested some years back):

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/...t-1222632.html
No, you're just reading in to Apple "fanboyism." Soon you will start believing that Apple created the internet with MAC addresses too, if you keep reading from that. (Literally seen this before on macrumors.com. Someone said Mac haters should thank Apple for creating the internet with "MACs".) There's about an equal chance of you being fucked (depending on how bad someone is willing to get on your computer). It mostly comes down to you, if that makes sense.

Also, I've never heard of evidence eliminator, sounds untrustworthy with the name alone. It's already been said... Use TAILS if you are trying to use Tor secretively, and TrueCrypt if you're trying to encrypt things on your hard drive (or encrypting your whole hard drive). I've heard of TrueCrypt holding feds out, including once when my buddy was raided by the FBI. But again, I seriously doubt it will come to that for what you are using Tor for. Good luck either way.

Last edited by Ironclad; 04-17-2013 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Question about Tor browser

http://gizmodo.com/5497953/how-to-hide-your-collection
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