Pontiac--RIP

[ArmsMerchant]

I am very sorry to see Pontiac die. In my youth, working stiffs were either GM folks or Ford folks--only weirdos bought Chryslers, and people who bought foreign were rich or vaguely suspect. We were GM.

After the war, my dad bought a new Pontiac for cash with his mustering-out dough--a sky blue late 40s model.

Years later, we had a great little 1961 Tempest, cream-colored four door sedan which I took my driver's test in.

And I recall well the Goat--the fabled GTO--the Tempest which had the big Bonneville V8 shoehorned into it. A tested model did zero to sixty in 4.6 seconds (which was fucking awesome for the time--zero to 60 in ten was considered really good), and sold for like $3700.

Ah yes--those were the days.

[Township Rebellion]

Yup.

I was never around for the days when the big 3 made nice cars, but more recently it's kinda sad to see Pontiac go. It had potential, and they did release a couple of decent cars in the recent past.

I quite liked the G6. It was honest, handsome, fairly comfortable, had plenty of grunt and handled nicely. There was shitloads of space inside, even back seat passengers behind me had no trouble with me having the seat nearly all the way back to accomodate my long-ass legs.

And, GM had the balls to use Pontiac to bring us North Americans two of Australias fine vehicles, the Monaro and Commodore. It was great because they were both exactly the same as the originals only in LHD, with a different front fascia and Pontiac badges. So many people didn't seem to know they were driving laughably disguised Australian cars. The ultimate joke is that they're both much better than most anything else GM of the US was making at the time.

Pontiac had the Fiero - the only company with the balls to specifically go after the sort of cars the european and japanese auto makers know how to do blind folded. Though quality wise they weren't quite up to scratch, they still sold well and continue to hold an enthusiastic following. Though I will always maintain the mk.1 MR2 as the much better car, despite some of the supposed advantages the Fiero had, but that's for a different thread.

It's the same story with the Solstice, it's commendable to ignore the usual american mantra of the V8 and go with an import baiting 4 cylinder sports car. Another example of the thinking that's gotten GM into their current mess is the time they spent building the Solstice - they rushed the development significantly instead of taking their sweet time and properly crafting a flawless drivers car, which is what one should do when making such a car.

Like I and others said in a previous thread, it's GMs own fault. Instead of allowing Pontiac to find their own niche and build their own cars, all GM did was take one car, and release it with different badges across the range. Why the hell should you buy a Sunfire when you could get a Cavalier, which is exactly the same car? Even the G6 borrowed a number of parts from the Chevy Malibu, including the frame. They've been doing this for so long and it's a shame, because they're just regurgitating more crap into the market instead of knuckling down and trying to come up with cars people might actually want to buy.

[Major General Franklin Kirby]

Why what's happened to Pontiac?

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by whitecocklover

Why what's happened to Pontiac?

GM is shutting them down because they po'.

[The Green Arrow]

IMO, Pontiac hasn't produce anything good since the late 70's to early 80's

[Major General Franklin Kirby]

Good all American car companies should shut down they are not good for the environment.

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by whitecocklover

Good all American car companies should shut down they are not good for the environment.

As an import fan, even I know this is wrong.

edit: oh, "banned". Consider me trolled.

[a giant pterodactyl]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

I am very sorry to see Pontiac die. In my youth, working stiffs were either GM folks or Ford folks--only weirdos bought Chryslers, and people who bought foreign were rich or vaguely suspect. We were GM.

After the wear, my dad bought a new Pontiac for cash with his musterong-out dough--a sky blue late 40s model.

Years later, we had a great little 1961 Tempest, cream-colored four door sedan which I take my driver's test in.

And I recall well the Goat--the fabled GTO--the Tempest which had the big Bonneville V8 shoehorned into it. A tested model did zero to sixty in 4.6 seconds (which was fucking awesome for the time--zero to 60 in ten was considered really good), and sold for like $3700.

Ah yes--those were the days.

yes, indeed, they were beautiful machines, i am still GM to this day.

[Kwinnie Bogan]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

A tested model did zero to sixty in 4.6 seconds (which was fucking awesome for the time--zero to 60 in ten was considered really good), and sold for like $3700.

Ah yes--those were the days.

Even these days the GTO Royal Bobcats are very quick cars. In comparison the 2009 G8 GXP does the 0-60 only a tenth quicker, 2 tenths at most.

[X61]

Nothing of value was lost.

[MasterYoda210]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

Like I and others said in a previous thread, it's GMs own fault. Instead of allowing Pontiac to find their own niche and build their own cars, all GM did was take one car, and release it with different badges across the range. Why the hell should you buy a Sunfire when you could get a Cavalier, which is exactly the same car? Even the G6 borrowed a number of parts from the Chevy Malibu, including the frame. They've been doing this for so long and it's a shame, because they're just regurgitating more crap into the market instead of knuckling down and trying to come up with cars people might actually want to buy.

That was the downfall of British Leyland.

Slightly out of context, but if Pontiac remembered the old "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it," they could have done something about it.

In all my holidays to America, and all my trips to car dealerships pretending me and my dad are rich European immigrants in order to test drive top of the range cars, we never went to a Pontiac dealer. Although back in '98 when my dad lived there, he did drive from New Orleans, to Chicago, to Seattle, to LA, back to New Orleans in a Grand Am. Not a Trans Am unfortunately. Have they stopped making them, or did Johnny Edwards of the Ray Brandt Dodge Chrysler Jeep dealership in Harvey, La 70058 lie to us to try to get us to buy a Charger SRT? (yes, I kept his business card)

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by MasterYoda210

That was the downfall of British Leyland.

Slightly out of context, but if Pontiac remembered the old "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it," they could have done something about it.

In all my holidays to America, and all my trips to car dealerships pretending me and my dad are rich European immigrants in order to test drive top of the range cars, we never went to a Pontiac dealer. Although back in '98 when my dad lived there, he did drive from New Orleans, to Chicago, to Seattle, to LA, back to New Orleans in a Grand Am. Not a Trans Am unfortunately. Have they stopped making them, or did Johnny Edwards of the Ray Brandt Dodge Chrysler Jeep dealership in Harvey, La 70058 lie to us to try to get us to buy a Charger SRT? (yes, I kept his business card)

The Grand Am is vastly different from the Trans Am.

The Pontiac Grand Am is mid-size sedan/coupe, as such:



This particular example has been tarted up with lots of silly plastic bits, though the wheels are from the factory. It's also the last of the Grand Ams, before Pontiac replaced them with the G6.

The Pontiac Trans Am is based on the Firebird, which is based on the Chevy Camaro:



This is the 4th generation, the last of the Firebirds. Pontiac stopped building them a number of years ago, so your salesman wasn't really pulling your prick.

[Kwinnie Bogan]

I've always thought G6s look horrific. I've always used it as the epitome of terrible American domestic styling.


My Falcon probably has 12" less ground clearance than that! Cars sitting up high, with styling that tries oh so hard to look all aggressive (), and rediculous grills are more stupidity brought on by the American automotive consumer market. Fuck them, just look at that thing. P.S. I heard Chris Bangle is an American. Mindfreeeaak.

[Mullen]

I've been a GM fan all my life, but they've had it coming since the '70s..

[MasterYoda210]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

The Grand Am is vastly different from the Trans Am.

The Pontiac Grand Am is mid-size sedan/coupe, as such:



This particular example has been tarted up with lots of silly plastic bits, though the wheels are from the factory. It's also the last of the Grand Ams, before Pontiac replaced them with the G6.

The Pontiac Trans Am is based on the Firebird, which is based on the Chevy Camaro:



This is the 4th generation, the last of the Firebirds. Pontiac stopped building them a number of years ago, so your salesman wasn't really pulling your prick.

Aye, I know. I was saying it was unfortunate it was a Grand Am instead of a Trans Am for his continental journey, cause the Trans Am is a much cooler car.

[ratfrink]

Originally Posted by KwinnieBogan

I've always thought G6s look horrific. I've always used it as the epitome of terrible American domestic styling.

Jesus christ, that thing is seriously ugly.

[Kwinnie Bogan]

^So I'm not the only one!

Originally Posted by Mullen

I personally think it's a good attempt, but it's not distinct enough as a Trans Am, but such a thing would require all new sheet metal from GM. It's not that pretty, but neither were the original '73s. Just 'mean'. A hell of a lot meaner than any tryhard G6.

[Cooldarkknick]

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5237/0117091141.jpg

My baby, 2008 Pontiac G8 GT. Honestly, I believe the value on a car like this will go up since Pontiac was shut down. The G6, G5, G3, vibe, etc. will likely go down.

[PROJECT PAT]

if you're 70 years old, like Greyfox, I can understand the dissapointment. Now they only make faggy cars for girls and mexicans.

[Kwinnie Bogan]

Originally Posted by PROJECT PAT

if you're 70 years old, like Greyfox, I can understand the dissapointment. Now they only make faggy cars for girls and mexicans.

They're not all bad at all, look at the post above yours:

That G8 GT is a hitman.


Run along now, you're going to be late for the Celtic music showing with your mother.

[Cooldarkknick]

Originally Posted by KwinnieBogan

They're not all bad at all, look at the post above yours:

That G8 GT is a hitman.


Run along now, you're going to be late for the Celtic music showing with your mother.

Hahah, thank you for your complement on my car.

[TheGreenDoctor]

Originally Posted by Mullen

I almost bought one of those a couple years ago, same color, but the one I was looking at was an 83. I'm much happier with my 78 Mustang II though.

[rider]

I'm going to miss Pontiac. The Gland Pees were some of the best, cheapest daily drivers out there. Especially the ones with the 3800 blocks, those were indestructible.

Although, with cars like the Vibe, which is a shitbox all around, they did have it coming to them. One or two good cars doesn't make up for a mostly shit line.

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by rider

I'm going to miss Pontiac. The Gland Pees were some of the best, cheapest daily drivers out there. Especially the ones with the 3800 blocks, those were indestructible.

Although, with cars like the Vibe, which is a shitbox all around, they did have it coming to them. One or two good cars doesn't make up for a mostly shit line.

What the hell are you talking about? The Vibe is essentially a Toyota Matrix in drag, with the same mechanicals and almost the same build quality. It's the closest thing to a good car Pontiac had in recent years, especially compared with its original contemporaries. The Grand Ams are okay cars but the design just isn't quite as good. The Vibe/Matrix handles better, and comes optional with AWD, which the GA doesn't. The 4 cyls have a bit more poke up high than the GM 4-cyl units and the manual transmission is much nicer. It's true the Grand Ams had the much gruntier V6s, but honestly such engines in such cars are completely unnecessary; the 6-speed GT version had plenty of go anyway and the V6 GAs didn't go any faster than them.

Moving on, the visibility is a bit better, for example the Grand Am typically suffers from wide A-pillars that can obstruct view, especially at 4-way stops. The Vibe benefits from a hatchback, which allows for more overall trunk space. Finally, although niether car really has especially high-quality interior design, at least the Vibe is a wee bit less bland and cheap looking. The Vibes' bold buttons and well-laid out controls were more of a tactical joy than the Grand Am. Personally, I always hated american interiors because of designs like these..

And besides, the Vibe is essentially a Toyota, which automatically gives it a one up in reliability and durability, though I have it on good authority the plant that builds the vibe didn't have the same quality standards the factories that built the Matrix had. Though honestly I always thought they were both made at the same plant, but the guy who told me this is always right about everything else..

[Vargus]

The 4 cyls have a bit more poke up high than the GM 4-cyl units and the manual transmission is much nicer.

Wut? The LE5 produces more power than the Toyota engine in all trim levels. And what's wrong with the transmissions?

[Vigilante]

This was hard felt when I first heard the news. My first car was a Pontiac Firebird, which I still own some many years later. I was born and raised on stories of the muscle cars my father and his brothers use to buy and build-up in their early days. I have maintained a goal of one day buying/restoring a 1979/80 Pontiac Trans Am.. It's pretty much my dream car. It's a sad day for anyone who appreciates the muscle cars of the years gone. I know the T/A hadn't been around since 02', but with the new Camaro, there was hope. Now the legend is dead.

My Firebird is a 4th Gen. by the way, with a LT1 dropped in it.. Kinda like a poor mans Trans Am.. You should see the look on most stang owners faces when they pull beside me expecting to blow a 3.8L off the road.. shocking reality check usually.

[Vamp]

Goats have always been my truest love when it comes to cars... but strictly the classics (60's and early 70's), so I really can't say the loss of Pontiac upsets me all that much.

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Vargus

Wut? The LE5 produces more power than the Toyota engine in all trim levels. And what's wrong with the transmissions?

Hmm.. I admit I didn't look up the power figures of the 4 cylinders of the Grand Am. However that doesn't make sense, the regular V6s made 170 HP and the Vibe GT made 170 HP. The V6 made more torque, but how could the 4 cylinders of the GA make MORE power?

Oh well. The point is realistically they are both about as quick. And again, the Vibe came with the option of a 6-speed, which in my experience greatly helps acceleration. And if the performance figures I claimed are the only thing you can refute, then the Vibe/Matrix still wins. Seeing as there's nothing else there to refute, I have little more to add. All I know is I spent far too much time driving both cars and the Vibe came off to me as a better car. Elaborating on the transmission, the vibes' manual shift to me was much more tactile, the throw was shorter and had a lovelier, springier feel than the wand in the grand am. Similarly, the shifter in the GA doesn't really feel like it's connected to anything, though at least it shifts accurately.

edit: In all honesty, I didn't mind the later model Grand Ams. I've had some memories driving those around... I remember one summer I drove nothing but a GA, in fact I passed my class 5 test in that particular car. Seperately, one day I was driving back to the shop in it listening to Beastie Boys. It was hot out. I came to a notorious 2-way stop, intersecting a main road that didn't have any stop signs or lights at the time (it does now, for what will be obvious reasons), and it was busy as all hell. I finally got to the line and waited for my turn to cross. A Jeep was coming to my right. I waited. Suddenly an old lady in an oldsmobile on the other side of the road didn't see the jeep and thought she was clear to go... so she drove out right in front of the thing and got slammed. The jeep hit the rear drivers side quarter panel, swinging its ass end around... slamming into my car.

It was awesome. I got in an accident, I did absolutely nothing wrong, the damage to my Pontiac was merely cosmetic and the car belonged to a dealership. I laughed when I told my boss I was involved in a crack-up..

[Paragon]

Pontiacs were some of my favorite cars. I had one for about a month (a relatively new Sunfire)... it was fucking awesome. Fuck GM for giving up on them.

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

Hmm.. I admit I didn't look up the power figures of the 4 cylinders of the Grand Am. However that doesn't make sense, the regular V6s made 170 HP and the Vibe GT made 170 HP. The V6 made more torque, but how could the 4 cylinders of the GA make MORE power?

I thought you were talking apples and apples, not apples and apple cores. The LE5, LNF, and LSJ are the only 4-cylinder engines that GM uses anymore. (And IIRC GM stopped making the LSJ.)

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Vargus

I thought you were talking apples and apples, not apples and apple cores. The LE5, LNF, and LSJ are the only 4-cylinder engines that GM uses anymore. (And IIRC GM stopped making the LSJ.)

Well, seeing as both cars have a range of engines, it's a harder subject to nail down. I'm not too familiar with the engine codes for GM 4-cylinder engines, but I'm also not too familiar with the point you're trying to make.

I know the Grand Am I described earlier used a 4 cylinder. Couldn't say what kind, but the Vibe had a nicer torque curve. It used a more pleasant swell of power, rather than just a clumsy dump of torque followed by not a hell of a lot in the Grand Am.

I'm going to stop because I wouldn't mind clarification, Vargus; I have no idea what the hell you're trying to tell me here. So GM makes only 3 different kinds of 4 cylinders these days. You left it at that. What exactly is your point?

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

What exactly is your point?

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

The 4 cyls have a bit more poke up high than the GM 4-cyl units and the manual transmission is much nicer.

You were the one trying to make a point...

[Combat Womabt]

I still remember driving a 96 bonneville SSE in a manual.
Too bad i never got to own a car like that.

[Rocko]

GM is about to axe 50% of their dealerships, I know a lot of guys who are probably going to lose their jobs.

[Township Rebellion]

I just discovered that the Vibe/Matrix never offered a manual for the AWD versions. boooo...

That was a make-or-break deal for me. If, one day - years down the road, I needed a normal car and one of those came up in my price range, it would've be an option. Now it's not.

Oh; it's also true the base models came with less power than the GA's 4-cylinders, however the top-trim model came with the better 1.8L VVTi engine that made more power than anything the comparitive Grand Am of the time had, including the V6. Though for some strange reason, the previous generation Grand Ams used fairly powerful engines, and they stopped using them though they continued making the same car.

Vargus, what do the LE5, LNF, and LSJ have to do with anything, those engines were specifically not offered in the Grand Am. My point was the vibe had a nicer power curve and felt just as quick if not quicker than the equivalent Grand Ams. WTF was your point?

[kirby]

GTO's are so cheap now, you can get a few with less then 10,000 miles for 15k!
Solstices are around the same price!

[Skidmeister927]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

I just discovered that the Vibe/Matrix never offered a manual for the AWD versions. boooo...

That was a make-or-break deal for me. If, one day - years down the road, I needed a normal car and one of those came up in my price range, it would've be an option. Now it's not.

Oh; it's also true the base models came with less power than the GA's 4-cylinders, however the top-trim model came with the better 1.8L VVTi engine that made more power than anything the comparitive Grand Am of the time had, including the V6. Though for some strange reason Grand Ams. WTF was your point?

I used to own a celica with the 1.8, and now own a monte carlo with a 3.8, and I can tell you there is NO comparison between them, the 3.8 blows the 4 banger out of the water. ~160hp to 200. And don't even get me started ton torque...

[The General]

what I would do for a 1969 black GTO......

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Skidmeister927

I used to own a celica with the 1.8, and now own a monte carlo with a 3.8, and I can tell you there is NO comparison between them, the 3.8 blows the 4 banger out of the water. ~160hp to 200. And don't even get me started ton torque...

No shit. The Grand Am never had the 3.8L V6. And of course any V6 would have more torque, and though the 3.4 the GA had did make more torque than anything in the vibe, the top-spec 1.8L motor did make more horsepower.

What I don't understand is where the monte carlo comes in, I was comparing the Grand Am to the Vibe/Matrix. Honestly, I don't see why anyone would want or try to contest this, either; I gave several perfectly valid points and all I'm getting is a bunch of braindeads chewing on their own armpit hair and spewing shit about some engine being better than some other engine. I'm getting that same red white and blue ideal that the only part of the car, and indeed ONLY part that matters is the engine. I don't understand the american fixation with this, it's as if an american car nut could drive what in his eyes would be the perfect car, it would just be an engine that you straddle and it magically tears down the road.. the perfectly straight road naturally.

Seriously you guys, pick up the intelligence a little bit, you're giving me fresh ammunition for an old anti-yank cannon I thought I wouldn't have to use anymore.

[MediumD]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

I was comparing the Grand Am to the Vibe/Matrix.

They all suck. The end.