No ID means...?

[superhornet59]

Whatsup guys.. long time no see.. I was glued to totse years back but when J.H. shut 'er down I didn't feel like 'moving'... but I'm here now, not that anybody remembers me... last time I checked the forums were filling up with noobs and trolls... who knows if any of you old timers are still here.

Anyway, enough sentiment. I was thinking back to that old CSI:LV episode where they caught that guy who was dumping a body and got stuck in concrete. he didn't have his I.D. and wouldn't tell them, and they spent much of the episode trying to find out who he was.

In reality, if you cannot be identified (ie: no I.D. on you, your prints/face aren't in any police databases, and you refuse to tell them shit), can you still be charged and everything? I mean at the very least you wouldn't have a criminal record when you're free again haha.

Now, I'm from Ontario Canada so its obviously more relevant to me if you know how its done up here.. but I'm curious how it's dealt with in the states.

I hear if you're caught in Texas and look Mexican they'll deport your ass or something lol.


-Matt

[Bender]

Welcome.

I mean I honestly don't think a bartender would call the cops, but it'd best best to get the fuck out. You'd probably be banned from the club/bar. Due to the fact they can be shut down for serving a minor.

[random_guy]

Originally Posted by Pandoras Assassin

Welcome.

I mean I honestly don't think a bartender would call the cops, but it'd best best to get the fuck out. You'd probably be banned from the club/bar. Due to the fact they can be shut down for serving a minor.

What the fuck are you talking about? He's talking about being arrested with no id not underage drinking.

Yea when I got a arrested they said "You fuckers better have I.D. or else you'll be in the holding cell 72 hours so we can figure out who the fuck you are" I take as it takes about 72 hours to figure out who you are. With the internet and other technology that seems right. Those CSI type shows just drag shit out for drama.

BTW I don't remember on you and I didn't even have a totse account but I lurked on there for about 2 years give or take. Well from 8th grade till last may ish so that's 4 years but I really lurked the last two. I guess I'm a semi old timer lol.

[Jack]

I don't know about the police honestly. As far as bartenders? I'm 18, and friend with connections has got me into clubs here in Dallas before. The only thing to worry about there is TABC agents. Fuckers popping up asking for ID out of the fugging blue. Just walk out, then what are they going to do? But I don't know how we got to bartenders anyway.

In Texas we aren't required to show ID to police unless operating a motor vehicle. Different states have different laws.

[random_guy]

Originally Posted by Jack

I don't know about the police honestly. As far as bartenders? I'm 18, and friend with connections has got me into clubs here in Dallas before. The only thing to worry about there is TABC agents. Fuckers popping up asking for ID out of the fugging blue. Just walk out, then what are they going to do? But I don't know how we got to bartenders anyway.

In Texas we aren't required to show ID to police unless operating a motor vehicle. Different states have different laws.

Even if your getting arrested? How would they know who you are for sure?

[vnorberto]

Originally Posted by random_guy

Even if your getting arrested? How would they know who you are for sure?

Probably, after all it is texas.

[Jack]

Well, I've been arrested with ID before, and they just asked my name, address, DOB, etc., and pulled me up in The System. ID is probably not required simply because they don't need it if you'll talk to them. Not sure really. I was a minor then though.

[aryanknight6]

if you dont have id they will ask you for your name and ssn. if you refuse to give that, they will probably take you in just for being uncooperative. if your fingerprints aren't in the database, they will book you in as john doe and have your prints on file. they can hold you for 72 hours with no charges, so depending on what they took you to jail for, they would probably hold you for 72 hours to wait and see if your prints come back with any warrants, and let you go if they dont. if your name is clean, why even do this?

[superhornet59]

Yeah.. umm.. I'm not talking about bars and stuff.. and some of you guys are saying they'll hold me till they find who I am... but i mean what if they *don't*.. can they charge a person as john doe?


Heres an example situation. You're driivng your car 50 km/h over the speed limit.. in Canada that is considered (thanks to a new bullshit law called bill 203) street racing, and you get slammed with IMMEDIATE license suspenion, vehicle impounding, and 2,000 to 10,000 fine, with nobody to appeal to (it's the cops decision). Now let's say you're driving a vehicle with vins grinded off.. from the engine/tranny, door, behind windshield, etc.. with a fake license plate and no purchase/insurance documents... so they basically have no way to find out where that vehicle is from or who it belongs to or where it came from.

Next they search you for I.D. and you have *none*, and there is nothing in the car that can be used to identify you.

When they ask you to identify yourself you say 'suck my fucking cock, pig' and don't tell them anything.


At that point, what can they do? If you're face and prints are not in their system, and they simply *cannot* find out who the hell you are... then what?



I mean even if you're caught stabbing someone in some forest and you have no I.D. and the other guy can't I.D. you, its the same thing... you're 'nobody'... how do they go about prosecuting you?

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by superhornet59

Yeah.. umm.. I'm not talking about bars and stuff.. and some of you guys are saying they'll hold me till they find who I am... but i mean what if they *don't*.. can they charge a person as john doe?


Heres an example situation. You're driivng your car 50 km/h over the speed limit.. in Canada that is considered (thanks to a new bullshit law called bill 203) street racing, and you get slammed with IMMEDIATE license suspenion, vehicle impounding, and 2,000 to 10,000 fine, with nobody to appeal to (it's the cops decision). Now let's say you're driving a vehicle with vins grinded off.. from the engine/tranny, door, behind windshield, etc.. with a fake license plate and no purchase/insurance documents... so they basically have no way to find out where that vehicle is from or who it belongs to or where it came from.

Next they search you for I.D. and you have *none*, and there is nothing in the car that can be used to identify you.

When they ask you to identify yourself you say 'suck my fucking cock, pig' and don't tell them anything.


At that point, what can they do? If you're face and prints are not in their system, and they simply *cannot* find out who the hell you are... then what?



I mean even if you're caught stabbing someone in some forest and you have no I.D. and the other guy can't I.D. you, its the same thing... you're 'nobody'... how do they go about prosecuting you?

It won't happen. They'll detain you, and eventually someone will file a Missing Person's Report. Then they'll get the ID, and you will be found.

[Silverfuck]

Don't they just have to get a warrant to take dental records or something? When they finally did figure out who you were, you'd get a big obstruction of justice-type charge on top of whatever you did anyways.

[superhornet59]

Originally Posted by Silverfuck

Don't they just have to get a warrant to take dental records or something? When they finally did figure out who you were, you'd get a big obstruction of justice-type charge on top of whatever you did anyways.

Wouldn't that directly violate your right to remain silent though?

The dental record solution is a good one, I didn't think of that.

In any case, you're still just evading the original question. what if you *cannot* be identified... I mean you could keep coming up with *oh but they'll get you this way*'s, but throw all that aside, what if they genuinely can *not* find out who you are. I mean I'm sure there are number of people in the U.S. who 'do not exist' that are in mafias and drug cartels.

At best, if they deport you (how are they gonna do that if they have no idea what country you're from) there are still ways to get back, and you're clean unless a cop checks your prints or whatever else they recorded.


The missing persons report.. again some people 'exist' only in circles that just don't file those kind of reports.


I know its a difficult concept to grasp, and you want to keep throwing out 'but then they'll just identify you by...'s, but forget that. Is there a 'protocol' for what to do when a person is genuinely 100% unidentifiable?

[Jack]

You can remain silent while they print you or pull yoru dental records. I imagine that if they can't ID you anyhow, they'll just John Doe you and give you a number and keep track of your prints and photo and whereabouts. No idea really.

[Gucci]

look buy a gun.

nuff said. your on top.

[DeadLegend]

I mean I honestly don't think a bartender would call the cops, but it'd best best to get the fuck out. You'd probably be banned from the club/bar. Due to the fact they can be shut down for serving a minor.

you completely missed the point of his post.


As far as your question op, i dunno.

I mean, there not just gonna say, "oh, well we dont know who you are, so i guess were not gonna be able to charge you"


But this brings up another question i have.

Lets say you have warrants or something, and you get stopped for some reason and wont give them your name, id, social, bday or anything.....can they hold you for that? Is that some kinda crime> I guess maybe it could be considered obstruction of justice....but idk..

[Giomanach]

You get charged as John Doe, and if/when you're released, you have a criminal record attached to your fingerprints and dental records.

You'd be in essentially the same position as a man who stole someone else's identity after a run-in with the law. Your prints, your teeth, your face, but not your name.

If you get done for anything fingerprint-worthy in the future though, you'd be connected back to the John Doe you were before.

[superhornet59]

yeah they'd probably charge you and keep the physical records.. if you ever have to get a fingerprint check somewhere it'll connect you quickly.. though nobody really 'forces' you to do that, you can always walk away.

It's a very practical question though.. if you're name is wanted for murder or something and there's an arrest warrant out for you, but they have no data on you (even assuming they have a picture.. is there a nation-wide facial recognition system out there? 'cause I don't know.) In which case it'd be beneficial to take the charges but then eventually be let out without them getting you for the original crime.

There are a bunch of people out there with 'new' (fake) alias and ID after a serious crime, and I doubt they'd be in a rush to tell police who they are if they were caught.. say.. shoplifting.

On a side note, if they do get a warrant for your prints and teeth.. and you tell them to fuck off (might as well if you're in that deep)... what can they honestly do? I mean they could grab you and hold you to get your prints... but your teeth? I mean they'd need to use some 'cruel and unusual' techniques to do that I'd imagine haha.

You can see where I'm going with this... the police have this 'hold' on us, like if they say so, and especially when a judge says so, we 'must' obey them.. but that's like when a cop pulls you over and says 'I'm going to search your car, okay' and you say 'um okayyyy' out of nervousness.. just by acting powerful, the pig got consent from you.. when the whole time it was a bluff and he could have very well f***ed himself.

I'm throwing out the same idea... yeah they can throw charges at you cause you're being a 100% uncooperative mofo, but once you've done your 'john doe' time and they let you out... they... can pretty much go fuck themselves unless they follow you around 24/7 till they find you (that's gotta violate some kind of harassment law, no?

I know that complex scenarios like that can be full with holes, but you see where I'm going with this.


In the U.S. they might bust out some anti-terrorist laws saying 'you're hiding your ID cause you're a taliban leader, so were sending you to a secret torture-prison' (even if you're a redneck or something) but in Canada things don't work that way.




EDIT: deadlegend, in canada the only time you legally *must* have I'd is when operating a motor vehicle. Don't know bout the U.S. though. It is very legal to not have ID here, and under The Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA) you can actively make almost any agency or company's to remove almost any personal information they have about you (aside from name and phone number), though its enforcement is pretty poor. Our laws are a bit different here, but everyone assumes we're just like the U.S. except for gun laws. That leaves room for scams and loopholes that most people never knew existed and never reach the 'big picture'... One example is that unlike in the U.S. where your SSN will *never* change no matter what, you can change your SIN (social insurance number, Canadian equivalent of a SSN) here, and there are little loopholes from there that can let you.. for example.. start a new financial record and leave the old one behind, without the credit card company's knowing (its almost legal, but the one minor infraction required would never ever stand up in court)

Things are cool here, if someone who isn't me or you should know how to milk the system.. hehe.

[313]

Originally Posted by superhornet59

Whatsup guys.. long time no see.. I was glued to totse years back but when J.H. shut 'er down I didn't feel like 'moving'... but I'm here now, not that anybody remembers me... last time I checked the forums were filling up with noobs and trolls... who knows if any of you old timers are still here.

Anyway, enough sentiment. I was thinking back to that old CSI:LV episode where they caught that guy who was dumping a body and got stuck in concrete. he didn't have his I.D. and wouldn't tell them, and they spent much of the episode trying to find out who he was.

In reality, if you cannot be identified (ie: no I.D. on you, your prints/face aren't in any police databases, and you refuse to tell them shit), can you still be charged and everything? I mean at the very least you wouldn't have a criminal record when you're free again haha.

Now, I'm from Ontario Canada so its obviously more relevant to me if you know how its done up here.. but I'm curious how it's dealt with in the states.

I hear if you're caught in Texas and look Mexican they'll deport your ass or something lol.


-Matt

youre going to slip up eventually. all the times you drink water, pop, juice, whatever...theres DNA on the glass.

they get a warrant=youre fucked.

[superhornet59]

Originally Posted by 313

youre going to slip up eventually. all the times you drink water, pop, juice, whatever...theres DNA on the glass.

they get a warrant=youre fucked.

Actually, When being accused of/ charged for a summary offense (less serious than an indictable offense... the offense type of every crime is set out by the Criminal Code) you cannot be fingerprinted. So if you were indeed a serial killer and refused to give ID, but were caught.. say stealing a car (its actually 'taking a car without its owners consent'.. i think you miiight have to know the owner or something but you can BS that shit in court.. but still, its only a summary offense... I swear to god..) they can't print you... and last time I checked failing to provide I.D. wasn't an indictable offense, so fuck them.

Legally you can be held in custody until your trial if there is some 'doubt of your identity', but once you've served your sentence or whatever, you can no longer be held in custody because it is not legal to be held in custody for purposes of identification if there are no charges pending.

They can't get your prints for a summary offense(I don't know if a warrant could change that, because I'm sure they'd try and get one if you were not cooperating), and I doubt they'd try and get it off you without a warrant as that would likely be out of bounds, legally speaking.

I can see I'm slowly starting to answer my own question here... but I want to see how conclusive and concrete this can get. I encourage anyone in Canada to look into this stuff, you have rights, freedoms, and opportunities you might not have known about, and can come in handy someday.


EDIT: I just looked up the legality/illegality of showing I.D. (people, please remember this is Canadian law... don't count on this working for you if you're in the U.S.). Although you may be held in custody because there is doubt of your identity, you are absolutely NOT obligated to provide ID, even if arrested. (but you can only be held up to your trial, which legally must be within 6 months of a summary offence.. not sure if they could actually make you wait that long or if you could request an earlier trial.. i'll admit it'd be shit if they detained you that long.) the only exception is if you are a) operating a motor vehicle or b) if you're being charged with a provincial offense (from what i understand, this just means a non-criminal offense that results in a ticket.. such as a littering fine or something).

So... yeah... in some situations they really *can't* get your prints and can't do jack shit other than charge you for what you did... but they can indeed make it hard on you. If they don't find out who you are, then too bad for them, they can't do anything more..

Another interesting thing to note is that even for an indictable offense (and obviously including summary and hybrid), police don't have the right to actually take your prints or photographs until after you've been charged.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Manifesto

It won't happen. They'll detain you, and eventually someone will file a Missing Person's Report. Then they'll get the ID, and you will be found.

What if you don't have ties to anyone, so no one files a missing person report. Hmm, interesting idea. This would work well for me, I don't get attached to people. You could also register for a lot of things with a fake identity, for many things it would only require a fake ID. Job, utilities, rent. They try to file a report and find out you don't exist. Hmm, use a fake ID whenever you go to the dentist, not a bad idea. You can create a new identity easily, just forge some documents and get a SSN.

Hell, I may just cease to exist one of these days.