Bullshit Thread - Part Zoklet

[Fractals]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

I joined this site a few years before he did

What? But your account is less than 2 years old.

Join Date: Jan 2009

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Fractals

What? But your account is less than 2 years old.

Join Date: Jan 2009

[Hydroponichronic]

On a side note, are there any non-nitrogenous μ-agonists out there?

[stateofhack]

Originally Posted by BungHole

You guys need to stop trying to harvest my personal information.

Hey, i have never tried that

Plus i am sure there is none aroud

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

On a side note, are there any non-nitrogenous μ-agonists out there?

Pretty sure it's just herkinorin. Rest are alkaloids or peptides, except other salvinorin derivatives which are mostly k-agonists. Morphine rule requires a nitrogen.

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by BungHole

You guys need to stop trying to harvest my personal information.

Ironically, I never tried to harvest your personal information until I read that sentence...

It must be hard, dealing with the small minds of kilimanjaro.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by JoePedo

Ironically, I never tried to harvest your personal information until I read that sentence...

It must be hard, dealing with the small minds of kilimanjaro.

They may be small, but their pineal glands are large and powerful.

[JoePedo]

~nods sagely~

You must cleanse the plague and harvest the cure, all in one fell swoop.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Pretty sure it's just herkinorin. Rest are alkaloids or peptides, except other salvinorin derivatives which are mostly k-agonists. Morphine rule requires a nitrogen.

I forgot about that. The structure itself is too complex to cook, but I wonder if a simplified version of it could be made. I must identify the critical functional groups.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

I forgot about that. The structure itself is too complex to cook, but I wonder if a simplified version of it could be made. I must identify the critical functional groups.

Too complex for a total synth for sure, but easy as from Salvinorin A mang. I've posted the method before. Thing is though, pretty sure the effects of Herkinorin are all peripheral. [1]

It would be interesting though if a simplified, centrally active version could be made.

[mr.138]

How far can one go in terms of substituting concentrated (100%) isopropyl alcohol instead of ethanol for recrystallizing methylamine HCL?

Not-me was recrystallizing methylamine HCL and remembered not-me was using isopropyl alcohol (by mistake) rather than ethanol.

Not-me has yet to do the routine proper solvent recrystallization step, but is curious if anybee has encountered this before.

Also, how far can one go using hardware store denatured alcohol in terms of recrystallization and various other chemical applications?

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by mr.138

How far can one go in terms of substituting concentrated (100%) isopropyl alcohol instead of ethanol for recrystallizing methylamine HCL?

Not-me was recrystallizing methylamine HCL and remembered not-me was using isopropyl alcohol (by mistake) rather than ethanol.

Not-me has yet to do the routine proper solvent recrystallization step, but is curious if anybee has encountered this before.

Also, how far can one go using hardware store denatured alcohol in terms of recrystallization and various other chemical applications?

The amine salt should be less soluble in isopropanol. Depending on how much less soluble, it might be a good thing. With less solubility, you'll use more solvent for the same mass of solute. If it still has decent solubility, the increase in volume simply helps carry away more impurities without carrying away too much extra product still dissolved in the solvent. But since methyl amine HCl isn't very soluble in acetone, isopropanol might not dissolve it well enough. You'll either need to use an inconveniently large volume of solvent, or you simply wont be able to dissolve any at all.

[mr.138]

Talk about an inconvenient amount, after adding approximately 2L of isopropyl alcohol for approximately 135 g of crude methylamine hcl (I think some was still undissolved) I could only get approximately 15g of snow-white methylamine hcl. Still trying with the rest though.

Would denatured alcohol work for recrystallization? I assume it would as it just has additives for human consumption, however, I'm not sure how concentrated it would be.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by mr.138

Talk about an inconvenient amount, after adding approximately 2L of isopropyl alcohol for approximately 135 g of crude methylamine hcl (I think some was still undissolved) I could only get approximately 15g of snow-white methylamine hcl. Still trying with the rest though.

Well, at least you know there isn't any ammonium chloride left at all probably,it shouldn't be soluble in isopropanol at all, as it isn't even soluble in ethanol.

Originally Posted by mr.138

Would denatured alcohol work for recrystallization? I assume it would as it just has additives for human consumption, however, I'm not sure how concentrated it would be.

It should only be ethanol and methanol, depending on where you live. Common brands around here only contain methanol and ethanol, in about a 50/50 ratio. But some places add dyes, pyridine, dinatonium benzoate, etc.

It should be more soluble in methanol though, so denatured alcohol will have the opposite effect. You'll either have too little solvent to decant, or poor crystallization. If this is a problem, add acetone or iropropanol to force the crystals out/rinse them.

[mr.138]

Will do. As always, thanks for the fast reply.

[BungHole]

I was reading back into the thread, and ya know, we're finally suppose to get banners I think....

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Hey mothafuckers, like our forum description?

Also, Lysergic Rain whipped us up this:


We're awesome.

[mr.138]

Two interesting developments:

First, the mother-liquor that I couldn't get to recrystallize after getting the small twenty-or-so gram yield has yielded more crystals. I haven't filtered or weighed the crystals, but it is a good amount, estimated at another 40 - 50 grams. I let it stay overnight, not-moved, after it failed to recrystallize that day.

Second, I remembered recrystallizing more product yesterday after the 20g recrystallized batch, and thought it was ammonium chloride due to the look of the crystals. The crystals on the second one were more salt looking and clumped together although it was snow white, however the first 20g batch look like shaved glass flakes. But given you said ammonium chloride isn't soluble in isopropyl alcohol, could it be that it is more recrystallized methylamine hcl, just not as good as the first yield of crystals?

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by mr.138

Two interesting developments:

First, the mother-liquor that I couldn't get to recrystallize after getting the small twenty-or-so gram yield has yielded more crystals. I haven't filtered or weighed the crystals, but it is a good amount, estimated at another 40 - 50 grams. I let it stay overnight, not-moved, after it failed to recrystallize that day.

Second, I remembered recrystallizing more product yesterday after the 20g recrystallized batch, and thought it was ammonium chloride due to the look of the crystals. The crystals on the second one were more salt looking and clumped together although it was snow white, however the first 20g batch look like shaved glass flakes. But given you said ammonium chloride isn't soluble in isopropyl alcohol, could it be that it is more recrystallized methylamine hcl, just not as good as the first yield of crystals?

After reading in the Merck Index that ammonium chloride is only almost insoluble in acetone, and actually soluble in both methanol and ethanol, I'm going to have to retract my statements.

I'm not even sure if it's more or less soluble in isopropanol than methylamine HCl, now. But without the extra methyl group, it should be less soluble, and should therefore be in the first crystallizations.

[mr.138]

That does make sense, but now I'm confused as to which is which.

I need some way doing a ghetto melting point test. Maybe I can clamp a capillary tube onto a hotplate and strap (or string up) a thermometer behind it and see at what temperature it melts. (Maybe a sand bath might be safer....). I don't, under any circumstances, want to deal with a boiling point test....

M.P. of Ammonium Chloride: 338 degrees C

M.P. of Methylamine HCL: 228-233 ºC

And I was looking at the pictures of ammonium chloride crystals on wiki and it did not look like the first recrystallization batch, but slightly more like the second (filtered and dried batch).

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by mr.138

That does make sense, but now I'm confused as to which is which.

I need some way doing a ghetto melting point test. Maybe I can clamp a capillary tube onto a hotplate and strap (or string up) a thermometer behind it and see at what temperature it melts. (Maybe a sand bath might be safer....). I don't, under any circumstances, want to deal with a boiling point test....

M.P. of Ammonium Chloride: 338 degrees C

M.P. of Methylamine HCL: 228-233 ºC

And I was looking at the pictures of ammonium chloride crystals on wiki and it did not look like the first recrystallization batch, but slightly more like the second (filtered and dried batch).

Well, like I said, the geometry of a crystal structure is one thing, but you will not distinguish two white powders by comparing them to a picture on the internet, atleast not easily. Particularly because it's probably a mixture.

Also like I said, expect the ammonium chloride to come out in the first crystallizations. It sounds like you got three crops of crystals atleast. Keep them separate. What ever is most soluble in isoproanol will come out in the latter batches. You wont get a batch of ammonium chloride first, then methylamine, then more ammonium chloride. You'll get mostly ammonium chloride first, a mixture of ammonium chloride and methyl amine second, then mostly methylamine third. Maybe the order might be reversed if I'm wrong about the solubilities(again), but you'll have the mixture in the middle either way. The only thing that might contradict this is if the two have such similar polarity and solubility that they simple form a homogenous crystal structure together(think of hydrate salts or other complexes). And still, that might only be the case with the middle batches, depending on whether the crystal structures composition will have definite proportions, or simply the proportions which compose the mixture.

As for melting point tests, I've tested a small quantity of a solid by melting it in a test tube with an analogue thermometer in it, and was getting the exact results I was hoping for, give or take a degree(mercury analogue with two degree increments). But I'm very reluctant to believe I did it properly and got accurate results. Hot plate and a digital infrared thermometer is probably the way to go.

As for actually using the methylamine with ammonium chloride impurities, it isn't much of an issue. It depends on what type of reduction you're using(assuming it's for a reductive amination), but it wont be too big of a deal. If you're doing it under neutral-alkaline conditions(as with amalgam), really the only problem is that you'll get a secondary amine whether you use ammonia or methylamine. If you look at the literature involving the reductive amination of P2P, you'll see forming the primary amine with ammonia yields about 30% usually, where as forming the secondary amine with methylamine yields around 70%. This is due to the formation of this:


It will form from a side reaction between unsubstituted amphetamine that is formed from the P2P and ammonia, and more P2P. The methamphetamine formed between the methyl amine and P2P wont do this under neutral conditions. Of course, you'll also have a mixture of amphetamine and methamphetamine.




On a side note: Guess who's taking their first college level chemistry class in a few hours.

[mr.138]

Originally Posted by BungHole

Also like I said, expect the ammonium chloride to come out in the first crystallizations. It sounds like you got three crops of crystals atleast. Keep them separate. What ever is most soluble in isoproanol will come out in the latter batches.

Thanks for clarifying that, it makes perfect sense now.

Originally Posted by BungHole

Hot plate and a digital infrared thermometer is probably the way to go.

I was thinking the exact same thing today. I picked up a digital infrared thermometer gun just a few weeks ago and its the best thing since the creation of the 'Flasks and Beakers' forum.

Originally Posted by BungHole

It will form from a side reaction between unsubstituted amphetamine that is formed from the P2P and ammonia, and more P2P. The methamphetamine formed between the methyl amine and P2P wont do this under neutral conditions. Of course, you'll also have a mixture of amphetamine and methamphetamine.

Huge thanks for adding this in, it'll be extremely helpful in future procedures.

Originally Posted by BungHole

On a side note: Guess who's taking their first college level chemistry class in a few hours.

I completely forgot Fall semester starts today. I have a four month summer given I'm on the quarter system at the end of September.

Please tell me you used Ratemyprofessors to choose your teacher. Nothing's worse than getting stuck with a lousy chemistry teacher, although, that shouldn't be much of a problem for you .

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by mr.138

Please tell me you used Ratemyprofessors to choose your teacher. Nothing's worse than getting stuck with a lousy chemistry teacher, although, that shouldn't be much of a problem for you .

Nah, I didn't use it. But apparently he had one rating and it was bad. He seems fine though.

[typedthiswithmytits]

bunghole can always teach them some things

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by typedthiswithmytits

bunghole can always teach them some things

I taught them how to make funny faces.

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by BungHole

This is due to the formation of this:

...am I the only person who thinks the cyclate epedrine ester of the dimer should be tasted? Just for shits and giggles?

[typedthiswithmytits]

Originally Posted by JoePedo

...am I the only person who thinks the cyclate epedrine ester of the dimer should be tasted? Just for shits and giggles?

besides it looking cool what are you trying to achieve?

nigga can make shits nd giggles out near bout anytings

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by typedthiswithmytits

besides it looking cool what are you trying to achieve?

Ever look up the structure of lobeline?? It establishes the existance of tricyclic DRI of at least some form.

I have no idea what the hell happens when you turn the piperidine nucleus around and sub one of its carbons with an oxygen molecule. What we do know, however, is this : that said oxygen is in the ideal position for biological activity.

Phenmetrazine - the perverse union of norephedrine and antifreeze - also establishes that this charming ring is viable; it's noted as being subjectively preferred to amphetamine and methamphetamine.

So - the ring is good, tricyclatism is good, the amine-aryl seperation is good, and oxygen positioning is good.

What's not to taste, exactly???

[typedthiswithmytits]

aslong as it dont taste like smoking tobaco

i'm up for the tasting

[Leshrac]

As long as this might be; I shall return them to thee.

Forfeit thy land, for the last blow of my hand,
will be dealt swiftly regardless of whom thy command.

Igne Natura Renovatur Integra.

/ancient text I like and thought fitting to write just now.

Libera Thule as "they" say ;-)

[typedthiswithmytits]

^^ deep

[stateofhack]

http://www.presse.uni-dortmund.de/me...e.jsp?oid=3611

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by stateofhack

http://www.presse.uni-dortmund.de/me...e.jsp?oid=3611

Fucking Nazis. It is German, right? Google wont translate it from German to English, or from Dutch to English. Fuck I need to learn other languages. I want to reads.

I've always wanted to go to Europe for my post grad education. The schools are nice there. But they hardly want to give me a free education in my own country.

[stateofhack]

Originally Posted by BungHole

Fucking Nazis. It is German, right? Google wont translate it from German to English, or from Dutch to English. Fuck I need to learn other languages. I want to reads.

I've always wanted to go to Europe for my post grad education. The schools are nice there. But they hardly want to give me a free education in my own country.

First Biotechnological Production of THC Accomplished

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by stateofhack

First Biotechnological Production of THC Accomplished

With what organism?!?!

[stateofhack]

Thanks someone else for the translation.

Chemists Succeed for the First Time in the Production of the Synthetic Cannabis-Agent

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active ingredient of the Cannabis-plant, could be used by now in many medical fields: In cancer therapy, for the treatment of multiple sclerosis or against chronic pain. The problem is though that the cultivation of Cannabis is restricted almost entirely by the Betäubungsmittelgesetz (BtmG). Only 20 kg per year can be produced, but the actual need is about a ton. An exit to this dilemma is now posed by a procedure, which Prof. Oliver Kayser of the technical biochemistry section of the TU Dortmund has developed: He succeeded for the first time in the heterologous biosynthesis of THC. A biotechnological process is in development in cooperation with Prof. Andreas Schmid from the biotechnology section.

In Germany is THC produced these from hemp, whose cultivation or import is illegal. Because the fibers contain only about 0.2% THC, the production process is accordingly laborious. From the Cannabis-plant, which can contain up to 25% THC, the isolation is not possible due to juridical reasons in Germany. The only remaining loophole is therefore the production of synthetic THC. While the classic synthesis of the Cannabis-agent is extremely expensive and laborious is the biosynthesis developed by Oliver Kayser out of the plant comparably economical and less time-consuming. For this task did the biochemist and his team identify the genes, which are responsible for the production of THC in Cannabis, and isolated them. Subsequently they were transferred into microorganisms, which were then propagated, to produce THC in a bioreactor. The result: Pure THC as heavily isolated agent.

“In the context of our works we aim at going even further by implementing the human enzymes as genes in that microorganisms, which already produce THC”, says Oliver Kayser. By this genetic modification of the bacterial metabolic potential it is thought to produce the metabolites, too, which can be provided as references for the forensic analytics of law enforcement agencies to aid in the detection of illegal consumption of hashish. But not only for pharmacy does the process, developed by the biochemists from Dortmund, pose advantages. The synthesis of human metabolites of pharmaceutical agents is a real challenge for chemists, because the liver enzymes can transform them quite selectively and specifically. This chemical modification can be achieved in the laboratory only with much arduousness and with creating immense costs. By the application of human liver enzymes, the so-called cytochromes, can the metabolism, i.e. the chemical modification, be achieved in exactly the same fashion, like in our bodies.

But to get Prof. Kayser’s microorganism-produced THC to the patients, is takes more. At this point comes the chair for biotechnology of Prof. Andreas Schmid into the game. Together shall the process engineering be developed, to obtain an industrial product. For this aim the THC-producing microorganism have to be further optimized, to manufacture THC at greater scale by this way. The biochemists were supported by the company THC Pharm (Note: This was the same company that found JWH-018 in Spice for the first time) and by the R & D-network “ChemBiotec” of the German Federal Foundation “Umwelt” (environment).

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by stateofhack

http://www.presse.uni-dortmund.de/me...e.jsp?oid=3611

*shits pants*

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Too complex for a total synth for sure, but easy as from Salvinorin A mang. I've posted the method before. Thing is though, pretty sure the effects of Herkinorin are all peripheral. [1] It would be interesting though if a simplified, centrally active version could be made.

Yup. AFAIK, Non-nitrogenous μ agonists have no known SAR's. I don't recognize jack that looks opiaty. it has a benzyl ester near a methyl ester (like cocaine) but that's likely unrelated. If we could synthesize sections of the molecule, we might be able to determine what on there activates the receptors.



I vote we start there.

Originally Posted by JoePedo

...am I the only person who thinks the cyclate epedrine ester of the dimer should be tasted?

No, but you are the only person who could synth such a compound.

Originally Posted by JoePedo

Ever look up the structure of lobeline?? It establishes the existance of tricyclic DRI of at least some form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobeline



http://cgi.ebay.com/5000-Lobelia-Inf...item20b0acccf5



I wonder if the isolated compound has any rec potential?

Originally Posted by JoePedo

Phenmetrazine - the perverse union of norephedrine and antifreeze - also establishes that this charming ring is viable; it's noted as being subjectively preferred to amphetamine and methamphetamine.

How hard would the synth be? Ether formation isn't a gentle process, usually.

Originally Posted by BungHole

Fucking Nazis. It is German, right? Google wont translate it from German to English, or from Dutch to English. Fuck I need to learn other languages. I want to reads.

What are you trying? It worked fine for me. Just say "detect language" to english, and copypasta the url into the translate box.

[Hydroponichronic]

Also,

A Timely Reminder Not To Be Fucking Stupid

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/88/8834sci1.html

On Jan. 7, 2010, Texas Tech University (TTU) graduate student Preston Brown was working with another graduate student to synthesize and characterize an energetic material, most likely nickel hydrazine perchlorate. Despite being told by their adviser, chemistry professor Louisa J. Hope-Weeks, to make no more than 100 mg of the material, the students synthesized 10 g.

Oh wait, it gets worse:

Because the product was lumpy, Brown placed his portion into a mortar. He believed that the compound was safe when “wet,” so he added some hexane and—wearing safety goggles but working at a bench in the middle of the lab, with no blast shield—“very gently, very, very gently” used a pestle to try to break up the chunks,

[Leshrac]

Someone attempting to grind down a primary isn't stupidity, it's natural selection.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

What are you trying? It worked fine for me. Just say "detect language" to english, and copypasta the url into the translate box.

I copypasta-ed the text itself, not the URL.

I put this;

Chemiker gelingt erstmals die Herstellung des synthetischen Cannabis-Wirkstoffes

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), der Wirkstoff der Cannabis-Pflanze, könnte mittlerweile in vielen medizinischen Bereichen Anwendung finden: in der Krebstheraphie, bei der Behandlung vom Multipler Sklerose oder bei chronischen Schmerzen. Das Problem ist jedoch, dass der Anbau von Cannabis in Deutschland durch das Betäubungsmittelgesetz nahezu vollständig eingeschränkt ist. Gerade einmal 20 kg pro Jahr können produziert werden, der tatsächliche Bedarf liegt aber bei über einer Tonne. Einen Ausweg aus diesem Dilemma bietet jetzt ein Verfahren, das Prof. Oliver Kayser vom Lehrstuhl Technische Biochemie der TU Dortmund entwickelt hat: Ihm ist erstmals die heterologe Biosynthese von THC gelungen. Ein biotechnisches Verfahren dazu soll nun gemeinsam mit dem Lehrstuhl Biotechnik von Prof. Andreas Schmid entwickelt werden.

In Deutschland wird THC bislang aus Faserhanf gewonnen, dessen Anbau oder Einfuhr legal sind. Da die Fasern weniger als 0,2 Prozent THC enthalten, ist der Produktionsprozess entsprechend aufwändig. Aus der Cannabispflanze aber, die bis zu 25 Prozent THC enthalten kann, darf der Wirkstoff aus juristischen Gründen in Deutschland nicht gewonnen werden. Als Ausweg bleibt also nur die Herstellung von synthetischem THC. Während die klassische Synthese des Cannabis-Wirkstoffs extrem aufwändig und teuer ist, ist die von Oliver Kayser entwickelte Biosynthese außerhalb der Pflanze wirtschaftlich und vergleichsweise unaufwändig. Der Biochemiker und sein Team identifizierten hierfür die Gene, die in der Cannabispflanze für die THC-Bildung zuständig sind und isolierten diese. Anschließend verpflanzten sie diese in Mikroorganismen, die entsprechend vermehrt werden können, um dann im Bioreaktor THC zu produzieren. Das Ergebnis: reines THC als stark isolierter Stoff.

»Im Rahmen unserer Arbeiten wollen wir in der Zukunft ein Stück weiter gehen und die humanen Enzyme als Gene in die Mikroorganismen bringen, die bereits THC herstellen«, so Oliver Kayser. Durch diese genetische Erweiterung des bakteriellen Metabolisierungspotenzials sollen dann auch die Metaboliten produziert werden, die als Referenzstoffe in der forensischen Analytik bei Polizei und Justiz für den Nachweis von illegalem Haschischkonsum benötigt werden.
Doch nicht nur für die Pharmazie bietet das von dem Dortmunder Biochemiker entwickelte Verfahren Vorteile. Die Synthese humaner Metabolite von Arzneistoffen ist auch eine echte Herausforderung für den Chemiker, da lebereigene Enzyme den Arzneistoff sehr gezielt und spezifisch umbauen. Diese chemische Veränderung ist im Labor nur mühsam und unter großen Kosten möglich. Durch den Einsatz von humanen Leberenzymen, den sogenannten Cytochromen, kann aber die Metabolisierung, d.h. die chemische Veränderung, der Arzneistoffe genau so durchgeführt werden, wie wir es im Körper kennen.

Um das von Prof. Kayser durch Mikroorganismen synthetisierte THC an den Patienten zu bringen, braucht es aber noch mehr. Hier tritt der Lehrstuhl Biotechnik von Prof. Andreas Schmid auf den Plan. Gemeinsam soll die verfahrenstechnische Entwicklung zum Industrieprodukt ermöglicht werden. Dafür müssen die THC-produzierenden Mikroorganismen weiter optimiert werden, damit THC auch in größeren Mengen auf diese At und Weise hergestellt werden kann. Unterstützt werden die Biochemiker dabei von der Firma THC Pharm und durch das Forschungs- und Entwicklungsnetzwerk „ChemBioTec“ der Deutschen Bundesstiftung Umwelt (DBU).

...In here.

It gave me back fucking German.

I fail.

Or I was lazy, and tricked someone into translating it for me.

Thanks though.

Originally Posted by stateofhack

Thanks someone else for the translation.

I wonder, will chemistry ever move away from it's roots in fermented brews?