Federal Income Tax

[morbidangel]

Interesting view. Check it out.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/conten...orized-version

[The Better Version]

Omg we've already seen this video and there's been a large discussion about it already, but I don't blame you since it was a long time ago and you're new so its whatever.

However, I don't think its cool to spread bullshit like this because its CLEARLY defined in the constitution that Congress has the right "...to lay and collect taxes", stated in Article 1, section 8, clause 1 of the constitution. The elastic clause that follows also allows Congress to use whatever means necessary to implement this power as long as it doesn't violate the constitution. However, this only takes care of taxation such as the sales tax, hence the reason they ratified the 16th Amendment that says "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration".

Now I can understand how people would be outraged about the whole idea of the income tax but to argue that a law never existed is just FLAT OUT WRONG in every conceivable way. Hell read the Federalist papers and they'll explain exactly why they gave Congress this power. I'll give you a hint. The Articles of Confederation failed for a reason.

If anything though, I would argue for a reconstruction of the payroll tax well before I rabbled over the the income tax.

[morbidangel]

the only failure with your last post is that the government clearly defines 'income' as being corporate profit, not wage-slavery

[The Better Version]

Originally Posted by morbidangel

the only failure with your last post is that the government clearly defines 'income' as being corporate profit, not wage-slavery

And where does this assertion derive from because as far as I'm concerned income means both the individual and corporate sector and that includes earned and un-earned income and when I reviewed the constitution again for this post I never saw a single word that said corporate profit.

Now don't misconstrue what I am saying. I'm not all for the income or payroll tax but I do find it a necessary tax. I think we're certainly getting taxed too high in comparison to corporations but an income and payroll tax plays a significant role in providing public goods. Personally I feel we should keep them and I don't think the tax itself is the problem. I think the proportion difference between corporate, payroll, and income tax is the real problem but what's even worse is the expansion of government programs. Now I love a lot of our government programs but a lot of what we're doing is unnecessary and really shouldn't be funded by us. So I figure with careful downsizing and a reapportionment of the tax system it would fair better for me then to just get rid of the taxes all together because how else could we provide for national defense and other imperative goods?

Btw it can't be considered wage slavery unless that investment doesn't come back to us. Obviously our country is hurting but its not as if the government is full blown taking our money and doing absolutely nothing with it.

[morbidangel]

It's clearly defined. In the movie, as well as tax codes, so dont yell about how youve already seen the movie if you didnt pay attention. And it's wage slavery because we're forced to work, or death. No different than serfdom. I don't say this because I'm a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to work or pay taxes. I say this because we shouldn't be owned by corporations, and we shouldn't have to pay UNLAWFUL taxes. Simple

[The Better Version]

Originally Posted by morbidangel

It's clearly defined. In the movie, as well as tax codes, so dont yell about how youve already seen the movie if you didnt pay attention. And it's wage slavery because we're forced to work, or death. No different than serfdom. I don't say this because I'm a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to work or pay taxes. I say this because we shouldn't be owned by corporations, and we shouldn't have to pay UNLAWFUL taxes. Simple

So.....got a link to those tax codes, then? If not its all good since this is an informal debate but naturally I'm still going to have to disagree with you until you provide some proof.....documentaries don't count as good sources.

And btw our tax policy isn't work or die. It's just technically illegal to evade taxes otherwise you go to jail. However, just because you evade paying taxes doesn't necessarily mean they're going to catch you. It just severely limits the amount you can do in America. I mean look at bums. They don't pay taxes and yet they're still alive and not even in prison.

I don't agree with our tax system but that doesn't mean we need to get rid of taxes all together, let alone the income tax that amounts to 35% of government revenue. I think its perfectly reasonable to argue against taxes but if you're going to argue against them then you have to accept the fact that your life won't be as convenient as it is today. I can't accept this because I'm a pussy ass American who likes my comfort. Sure I can live without it but I'd rather just pay to live a life of comfort.

Anyway I full heartedly agree with the notion that we shouldn't be owned by corporations but still....getting rid of our tax system isn't the solution and is more or less only going to hurt this nation. You need to direct that anger where it needs to be directed.

Also serfdom is VERY different from what we're experiencing. In serfdom you cannot choose what you want to be. You're forever destined to be what your father was, you work your ass off only so you can live within the confines of a shitty ass castle and the only thing you get is what you need to work and the bare minimum amount of food you need to keep going. At least in America you can choose to work, choose your profession, and its at least possible to have a job that gives you money to spend on whatever the hell you want to (within reason). Not saying its perfect but comparing our system to serfdom is like comparing our empire to the Third Riche.

[morbidangel]

I'm talking extreme cases generated over time... Serfom being an example. And I do agree with you on many points.

quoting a good point made from another forum:

The 16th amendment states, "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." Notice it says, "taxes on incomes", nowhere does it state that Congress can only tax profits and gains. BTW, a wage you earn by working is a GAIN to you. A gain is the difference between what you PAID for something and what you sell it for. You have paid nothing for your labor. If you get paid $20 an hour for your work, that entire $20 is a gain

I have found the laws before. I'm just too lazy to read through legal texts at the moment. Sue me? lol

[The Better Version]

Originally Posted by morbidangel

I'm talking extreme cases generated over time... Serfom being an example. And I do agree with you on many points.

quoting a good point made from another forum:

The 16th amendment states, "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." Notice it says, "taxes on incomes", nowhere does it state that Congress can only tax profits and gains. BTW, a wage you earn by working is a GAIN to you. A gain is the difference between what you PAID for something and what you sell it for. You have paid nothing for your labor. If you get paid $20 an hour for your work, that entire $20 is a gain

I have found the laws before. I'm just too lazy to read through legal texts at the moment. Sue me? lol

Na. You and me both. I just had this heated discussing with a holocaust denier who claimed he could provide good sources to back his statements. The point I made was that hardly anyone on this site, including myself, actually takes the time to perform genuine research and therefore almost everything that is stated on this site can only be assumed to be true rather than actually being true. Of course the idiot Whip couldn't conjure up any credible sources yet he continued to insist that he was right. Now I'm not saying I proved him wrong but he never proved me right and the reason why I didn't bother was because I was trying to illustrate the point that his research methods are full of shit just like everyone else's.

In any case I agree that what you make through work is rightfully yours but if you're going to live in a country you also have the obligation to pay for that country in some way. Also income is the same thing as profit and gains so they can tax you on income that you've either earned through working or investing. But once again I feel the tax system is horribly flawed and needs to be re-evaluated. I don't like paying for things but its just a fact of life that someone has to work to produce something, such as national defense, and therefore payments to those individuals and goods must be made.

[Shrike]

Americans seem to have this huge phobia of paying taxes, I mean at all. It's fucking weird. Taxes pay for good stuff.

[WAN]

I heard it's unconstitutional

[Cytosine]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Americans seem to have this huge phobia of paying taxes, I mean at all. It's fucking weird. Taxes pay for good stuff.

but taxs pay for comomomunisms and ebil nazi socialists!!!!!1111one

[morbidangel]

People have a phobia against taxes because if you win a case against the IRS, even if you're innocient, they'll declare that you're a drug dealer, kick in your door, sieze your children, boats, guns, houses, cars, and paychecks before you even get them. Even if you're innocient. So most people just cave and try not to think about it.

[whocares123]

Originally Posted by morbidangel

People have a phobia against taxes because if you win a case against the IRS, even if you're innocient, they'll declare that you're a drug dealer, kick in your door, sieze your children, boats, guns, houses, cars, and paychecks before you even get them. Even if you're innocient. So most people just cave and try not to think about it.

lawl wut?

[supperrfreek]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Americans seem to have this huge phobia of paying taxes, I mean at all. It's fucking weird. Taxes pay for good stuff.

Can't the founding of this country (even if only in part) be traced back to a tax discrepancy?