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View Full Version : The Precursors Thread


MrSparkle
2008-08-14, 15:12
Since stateofhack started a methamphetamine thread I thought why the fuck not make a precursors thread. I started this thread on another forum a good while ago but I was too lazy to keep updating it but if anyone has any useful info to add I will.

Most of this I got off wikipedia but I thought it would be nice to organize it all into a thread. I'd even make it into a HTML document if I wasn't such a lazy prick.

The idea here is to keep adding to it until it turns into something. If you have any info on the acquisition, properties, uses or anything else regarding any of these precursors post it and I'll update the thread.

P2P
P2P short for phenyl-2-propanone also known as phenylacetone is a common precursor used in the synthesis of amphetamines such as methamphetamine and methcathinone.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Phenylacetone.png/200px-Phenylacetone.png

Used to synthesize:
- Amphetamine
- Methamphetamine
- Methcathinone

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Benzaldehyde
- Propenylbenzene

Other names:
Phenylacetone, benzyl methyl ketone; methyl benzyl ketone; phenyl-2-propanone





MD-P2P
MD-P2P stands for methylenedioxy-phenyl-2-propanone and is a common precursor used in the synthesis of MDMA.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/MDP2P.png/250px-MDP2P.png

Used to synthesize:
- MDMA
- MDEA

Precursors used in the synthesis of this chemical:
- Safrole
- Isosafrole




P2NP
P2NP which stands for Phenyl-2-Nitropropene a chemical compound which can be used as a precursor in the synthesis of amphetamines and P2P.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a1/Phenyl-2-nitropropene.svg/200px-Phenyl-2-nitropropene.svg.png

Used to synthesize:
- Amphetamine
- P2P

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Benzaldehyde
- Nitroethane




Ephedrine
Ephedrine is a precursor which is commonly reacted with iodine and red phosphorous to produce methamphetamine. Ephedrine can also be converted into other amphetamines such as methcathinone.

General info:
Ephedrine (EPH) is a sympathomimetic amine commonly used as a stimulant, appetite suppressant, concentration aid, decongestant, and to treat hypotension associated with anaesthesia. Ephedrine is similar in structure to the synthetic derivatives amphetamine and methamphetamine. Chemically, it is an alkaloid derived from various plants in the genus Ephedra (family Ephedraceae). It is most usually marketed in the hydrochloride and sulfate forms.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Efedryna.svg/200px-Efedryna.svg.png

Used to synthesize:
- Methamphetamine
- Methcathinone

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- l-PAC

Commercial uses:
Ephedrine is commonly sold in weight loss products and nasal decongestants.

Natural sources:
- Ephedra spp.
Plants of the ephedra genus produce ephedrine in varying quantities. Out of all the plants in the Ephedra genus Ephedra sinica aka Ma Huang is known to have the highest concentration of ephedrine.





Pseudoephedrine
Pseudoephedrine is an optical isomer of ephedrine and is used in conjunction with iodine and red phosphorous to produce methamphetamine in the same way ephedrine is.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Pseudoephedrine.PNG/175px-Pseudoephedrine.PNG

Used to synthesize:
- Methamphetamine
- Methcathinone

Common uses:
Pseudoephedrine is used as a nasal decongestant and is found in many over the counter cold and sinus medications found in the pharmacy.




Safrole
Safrole is a chemical compound commonly used as an MDMA precursor. Safrole is used as a reactant to obtain the intermediary MD-P2P which is then used to synthesize MDMA.

General info:
Safrole is a colorless or slightly yellow oily liquid. It is typically extracted from the root-bark or the fruit of sassafras plants in the form of sassafras oil, or synthesized from other related methylenedioxy compounds. It is the principal component of brown camphor oil, and is found in small amounts in a wide variety of plants, where it functions as a natural pesticide.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Safrole-Line-Structure.png/200px-Safrole-Line-Structure.png

Used to synthesize:
- MD-P2P

Natural sources:
- Sassafras oil (Usually contains 80%-95% safrole)
- Brown camphor oil

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Eugenol

Common uses:
- Used as an aromatherapy aid in the form of essential oil



Benzaldehyde
Benzaldehyde is an aromatic compound commonly used as a precursor for synthesizing P2P. Benzaldehyde is also used in the process of brewing ephedrine.

General info:
Benzaldehyde is a chemical compound consisting of a benzene ring with an aldehyde substituent. It is the simplest representative of the aromatic aldehydes and one of the most industrially used members of this family of compounds. At room temperature it is a colorless liquid with a characteristic and pleasant almond-like odor: benzaldehyde is an important component of the scent of almonds, hence its typical odor. It is the primary component of bitter almond oil extract, and can be extracted from a number of other natural sources in which it occurs, such as apricot, cherry, and laurel leaves and peach seeds. Currently benzaldehyde is primarily made from toluene by a number of different processes.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Benzaldehyde.png/100px-Benzaldehyde.png

Used to synthesize:
- P2P
- l-PAC

Natural sources:
- Bitter almond oil

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Toluene
- Cinnamaldehyde

Common uses:
- Commercial food flavourant (almond flavour)




Cinnamaldehyde
Cinnamaldehyde, the chemical which gives cinnamon its flavor can be used as a precursor to synthesize benzaldehyde.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Zimtaldehyd_-_cinnamaldehyde.svg/125px-Zimtaldehyd_-_cinnamaldehyde.svg.png

Used to synthesize:
- Benzaldehyde

Natural sources:
- Cinnamon bark oil (90% cinnamaldehyde)

Common uses:
- Commercial food flavourant (cinnamon flavour)
- Fungicide



Phenylpropanolamine (PPA)
Phenylpropanolamine sometimes abbrevated PPA is a compound which is used in the synthesis of phenthylamines such as amphetamine and 4-aminorex. The same way ephedrine is reacted in conjunction with iodine and red phosphorous into methamphetamine, phenylpropanolamine can be reacted with iodine and red phosphorous to produce amphetamine.

General info:
PPA used to be sold over the counter as a nasal decongestant but was taken off the shelves due to adverse reactions consumers were having such as hypertension. There are four optical isomers of phenylpropanolamine: d- and l-norephedrine, and d- and l-norpseudoephedrine. D-norpseudoephedrine is also known as cathine, and occurs naturally in the stimulant plant Catha edulis (khat).

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Phenylpropanolamine.png/185px-Phenylpropanolamine.png

Used to synthesize:
- Amphetamine
- 4-aminorex

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Alanine




Alanine
Alanine is used as a precursor in the synthesis of the amphetamine precursor phenylpropanolamine.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Phenylpropanolamine.png/185px-Phenylpropanolamine.png

Used to synthesize:
- Phenylpropanolamine





Phenylacetic Acid (PAA)
Phenylacetic Acid sometimes abbreviated PAA is a compound often used in the production of amphetamines or other precursors such is phenyl-2-propanone.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/2-phenylacetic_acid.png/200px-2-phenylacetic_acid.png

Used to synthesize:
- Amphetamine
- P2P

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical:
- Benzyl Chloride
- Benzyl Cyanide



2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde
2,5-Dimethoxybenzaldehyde is an organic compound and a benzaldehyde derivative. One of its uses is the production of 2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine also known as 2C-H. 2C-H is used to produce many other psychoactive drugs, such as 2C-B, 2C-I and 2C-C.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Dimethoxybenzaldehyde.png/180px-Dimethoxybenzaldehyde.png

Used to synthesize:
- 2C-X
- DOX

Precursors used to synthesize this chemical
- 2-methyl-4-methoxyphenol
- Anethole




Anethole
Anethole, the aromatic compound which is responsible for the flavour of licorice can be used as a precursor in the synthesize of many useful precursors such as 2,5-Dimethoxybenzaldehyde.

Chemical structure:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Anethole-structure-skeletal.png/200px-Anethole-structure-skeletal.png

Used to synthesize:
- PMA (Paramethoxyamphetamine)
- 2,5-Dimethoxybenzaldehyde

Natural sources:
- Pimpinella anisum (Anise)
- Illicium verum (Star anise)
- Foeniculum vulgare (Fennel)
- Syzygium anisatum (Anise myrtle)

Common uses:
- Commercial food flavourant (Licorice flavour)

stupid noob
2008-08-14, 22:32
Not bad man, not bad at all. I think this would make a great resource for our newer folks, as well as a quick place to check things for those of us who've been around but haven't gotten to EVERY little thing yet.

disobey_the_norm
2008-08-15, 06:29
Not bad man, not bad at all. I think this would make a great resource for our newer folks, as well as a quick place to check things for those of us who've been around but haven't gotten to EVERY little thing yet.

That would have been a great response had you believed it. Is stupid noob someone that was put in charge here to be a constant reminder to never use your own gear?

It's missing all sorts of things, legality, availability, optimal storage environments...what it LOOKS like.

You know noob, all those things that are so important to know (your words?) are missing and here you are kiss assing.

Hey! Maybe you could research this and reveal it to the community so you could contribute for a change. I know that's dreaming...but not the good type of dreaming which you'd assure us you're very good at...

Thumbs down for saying one thing one place and another in another place.

Try to be consistant with your belief system.

stupid noob
2008-08-15, 09:57
You want to bitch about me? Fine. Take it to fucking Bitch and Moan with all the rest of the whine asses. It doesn't belong here, and if I see it again, it will be considered spam. Stay on topic, ya got it? Bitch all you want, but do it in the PROPER forum. We don't need your crybaby bullshit cluttering up decent threads.

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 10:50
I was thinking of compiling a load of information from drugs-forums, wetdreams, rhodium, the old hive and other good sites into one place and turning it into a PDF document. It can even have all the different syntheses that each of these precursors are involved in.

disobey its just a start. I'm hoping other people can contribute because I did all that by myself and it took me about 2 hours. If everyone pitches in I can turn this into something worthwhile though. I was thinking that too. Listing each precursors legal status is next on the list of things to add.

Von Bass
2008-08-15, 11:22
I like the thread, the OP post is tastefully full of organised, relevant, useful information, I was gonna post this when I first read the thread, but thought that if it was gonna turn into decent discussion, a 'nice thred man' post wouldn't exactly have much relevance and would be just wasted within the thread.

Either way, as long as this isn't going to be entirely devoted to amp based stimulants, I'll try to contribute what I can, although I've yet to think of an area that I could actually help with...

Oh, and disobey_the_norm, your name makes you sound 13, and its more than a little hypocritical to bitch at two posters who have posted countless amounts of decent information and experience when I have yet to see a quantity of decent posts from you.

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 12:14
Yea its gonna include all drugs Von Bass. I just started with amphetamines because I had to start somewhere. I'm gonna categorize it into Phenethylamine precursors, typtamine precursors, opiate precursors or something like that. Its hard to edit it on forums though so I put it up on a webpage instead and when it gets big enough I'll convert it into a PDF document.

Heres what I've got so far
http://toxicopoeia.com/precursors/precursors.html

Since you can fit whole books into PDF documents I might as well throw in various syntheses too. I wonder why theres hardly anything like this out there. Are there any legal issues associated with compiling controversial info like this? I never did understand why the Rhodium archives was shut down and never revived.

Von Bass
2008-08-15, 12:18
http://toxicopoeia.com/precursors/precursors.html

Bookmarked :)

I may be able to help into some information on opiates, I've researched a bit into various routes and methods. Opiate chemistry is often less to do with one reaction on a more complex precursor chemical, but a series of simpler steps starting from something less related, e.g.

codeine -> codeinone -> 14 - hydroxycodeinone -> Oxycodone

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 12:31
I was wondering about that. Some well known precursors don't go straight from A to B they go from A to a not well known precursor then to B. Should I list codeinone and all that as precursors or should I just list codeine and note that it has to be converted to codeinone before it can reach oxycodone.

The reason I added P2P and MD-P2P and chemicals like that is because they're well known and talked about alot but obviously chemists don't start at P2P its just a stepping stone.

I might just make entries for all the stepping stones to be as comprehensive as possible.

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 12:39
I thought I'd throw in a little disclaimer at the top because it makes it look more professional and it will make all those anti drug freaks a little calmer if they happen to stumble upon it.

Von Bass
2008-08-15, 12:45
I was wondering about that. Some well known precursors don't go straight from A to B they go from A to a not well known precursor then to B. Should I list codeinone and all that as precursors or should I just list codeine and note that it has to be converted to codeinone before it can reach oxycodone.

The reason I added P2P and MD-P2P and chemicals like that is because they're well known and talked about alot but obviously chemists don't start at P2P its just a stepping stone.

I might just make entries for all the stepping stones to be as comprehensive as possible.

Yeah, and what with P2P and MDP2P being to a whole host of amphetamines and related compounds, I would imagine the best thing to do in order to branch to opiates would be to start with the major precursors.

In the case of opiates, its often the most easily acquired starting opiate which can be changed into something stronger. In a lot of cases its codeine, but industrially I believe thebaine is used a lot, especially for the production of oxy.

So if I was to give advice, it would be list the most common starting molecules for opiod production, perhaps you could go so far as to list a simplified clean-alkaloids-from-opium procedure, as its obviously the starting point for a great many opiate products. I have a friend who will be doing a lot of work on that, what with having a decent patch of poppies he can work on, so if you wish to expand that sort of area of information into something a bit more complex, perhaps with pictures and such, I'm sure they can be supplied.

Do you have msn or anything? Do you think we could talk on there?

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 13:01
Yeah my MSN is charly.the.tit at gmail.com

I started off the opiate section take a look
http://toxicopoeia.com/precursors/precursors.html#codeine

Shifftee
2008-08-15, 14:06
Very nice !

Thou' countless routes for the production of precursors and preprecursors have been proposed over the years, maybe OP should include only the most practical and OTC ones here (or at least separate them from the others, otherwise things would get rather messy and confusing to newbies who have not researched many routes). That's just an idea.

BTW, as to benzaldehyde, a nice fellow over at wd claimed he was simply refluxing benzyl alcohol and nitric acid and got yields in the neighbourhood of 60% benzaldehyde (er.. also, a few grams of sodium nitrite were used). He did impy some toxic fumes were produced in his dreams, but nothing a good condesner can't handle).

Edit: Hiar. -> http://www.wetdreams.ws/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7071&whichpage=1

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 15:22
Yea I might add some sorta OTC scale for each procedure. 0 to 10 10 being fully OTC, 0 not OTC at all.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the legal status of precursors used in drug chemistry? I know P2P is schedule II in the U.S. but I have no idea the legal status of most of the other chemicals on the list.

Shifftee
2008-08-15, 15:33
Yea I might add some sorta OTC scale for each procedure. 0 to 10 10 being fully OTC, 0 not OTC at all.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the legal status of precursors used in drug chemistry? I know P2P is schedule II in the U.S. but I have no idea the legal status of most of the other chemicals on the list.


Erm, I don't think that's a very good idea.. since OTCness (rofl..) is kind of relative from place to place.. but it's safe to say that HCl is more otc available than Sodium Cyanoborohydride, etc... so it requires some more thought than that.. rather than rate it, one could just make a list of possible OTC sources ? (I know this looks like fucking spoonfeeding, but face it.. it's valuable.. don't be selfish)

BTW, I should be feeling pretty dumb about now :\

Here's a nice thread -> http://www.wetdreams.ws/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4675&SearchTerms=almond,oil

stateofhack
2008-08-15, 16:31
:) That is nice thread, its nice stuff and i think it should be stickied (needs some moar stuff tho'). Althought there is already something like this covering many more precursors, but yeah nice stuff :)

MrSparkle
2008-08-15, 18:11
Have you got a link to that stateofhack? Its too hard to update the thread so I put it up on a website. Heres the updated version
http://toxicopoeia.com/precursors/precursors.html

A Clockwork Pumelo
2008-08-15, 19:41
Fascinating... it appears that I have most of the substances necessary to set up a meth lab and an extasy lab either stashed under the kitchen sink, in the soap making stuff in my basement, on my spice rack, or in my henna kit... but I think I like them better the way they are... almond float FTW.

stateofhack
2008-08-17, 20:09
Have you got a link to that stateofhack? Its too hard to update the thread so I put it up on a website. Heres the updated version
http://toxicopoeia.com/precursors/precursors.html

Look on erowid i believe its in the rhodium archive, i have a copy of it somewhere, but i am feeling lazy. If you can't find it (please do search :mad:) then tell me and i shall post it.

Cheers,

-state

MrSparkle
2008-08-17, 21:02
This is probably what your talking about
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/yadontsay/index.html
that article hardly gives any information on each of those precursors though

stateofhack
2008-08-17, 21:23
This is probably what your talking about
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/yadontsay/index.html
that article hardly gives any information on each of those precursors though

Yep true, but then it kills all the fun to search for it ;) i mean i am all for sharing sources, routes and all but i think that you should leave some kind of research to the "other" person.
Either ways nice job on that!

hrsepwrjnky
2008-09-02, 10:21
Yea I might add some sorta OTC scale for each procedure. 0 to 10 10 being fully OTC, 0 not OTC at all.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the legal status of precursors used in drug chemistry? I know P2P is schedule II in the U.S. but I have no idea the legal status of most of the other chemicals on the list.

swihpj was wondering if you had any more info on P2NP.uses other than ma production via p2p,legal status otc or scheduled,viable otc routes,stuff like that.
peace out swihpj

Sexual_Jesus
2008-09-02, 17:21
can we make suggestions for you to add?
piperidone or the thing thats made from it npp for fentanyl
or lysergic acid for lsd
codeine would be a good but obvious one (theres other routes i guess)
or a good one would be gbl or gaba, but no one really wants to make ghb when theres good meth to be made

speaking of which what about red phosphorous and iodine for the ma, there getting harder to get but just as important, i hear even h3p03 rp acid is getting scheduled or is scheduled

and this is in reply to hrsepwrjnky (really weird name) and to help out with the otc questions, list of schedules and laws on chemicals
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28564

and an outdated list from 07
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=5&id=4089

MrSparkle
2008-09-02, 19:49
Shit I forgot about this thread. I updated the list on my own comp but I accidentally deleted it. Its a real hassle updating it so I'm gonna try and add it to drugwiki so everyone can update it and add info to it.

Jesus I didn't throw in RP and I cuz they're not precursors. Iodine is a reactant and RP is a catalyst. I'd be better off making separate sections for them. Precursors are the building blocks for more complex molecules (also to make less complex molecules)

nshanin
2008-09-02, 20:03
Indole-3-carbaldehyde is the main precursor for almost all of the non-oxygenated compounds in Tihkal. Moar tryptamines!

Sexual_Jesus
2008-09-03, 07:19
Shit I forgot about this thread. I updated the list on my own comp but I accidentally deleted it. Its a real hassle updating it so I'm gonna try and add it to drugwiki so everyone can update it and add info to it.

Jesus I didn't throw in RP and I cuz they're not precursors. Iodine is a reactant and RP is a catalyst. I'd be better off making separate sections for them. Precursors are the building blocks for more complex molecules (also to make less complex molecules)

yeh of course, i knew they wasnt precursors, i love your list your doing a great job.

but for the sake of discussion anyone got any ideas on where to get 4 piperidone without getting scammed by chinese internet websites?

stateofhack
2008-09-14, 09:26
yeh of course, i knew they wasnt precursors, i love your list your doing a great job.

but for the sake of discussion anyone got any ideas on where to get 4 piperidone without getting scammed by chinese internet websites?

Eastern europe....

bluegreen
2008-10-29, 15:58
Botanical Sources safrole: Ozark mountains(s. missouri & n. arkansas) millions of wild sassafrass trees.root bark only.the oil is volatile must be cooked right after chipping.10lbs bark=215 grams safrole after steam distillation. root beer plant (piper auritum) all parts=80% safrole after steam distillation.is a weed in florida .easy to grow. foliage can take light frost .roots hardy to 15f. asarone: calamus root(sweet flag) found in the swamps of s.canada & n. USA.oil was banned in 1968.easy to grow from seed.must have triploid or tetraploid.diploid has no asarone.steam distillation of root. how to make a still; first you need a large pressure cooker with a bottom grate.fill cooker with raw botanicals and cover with water.15ft. of copper tubbing is connected to lid where weight or gauge goes.bend the tubbing to form coils and submerge in a ice water bath in a wash tub.the end of the tubing pokes out the bottom of the tub is silicone sealed.the end of the tubbing drips oil and water into a large glass jug.after the cook off let the oil water separate.pour the oil into separation funnel to get residual water out.watch these video to make it clearer.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKUFfZODLRs

bluegreen
2008-10-29, 17:51
Botanical Sources safrole: Ozark mountains(s. missouri & n. arkansas) millions of wild sassafrass trees.root bark only.the oil is volatile must be cooked right after chipping.10lbs bark=215 grams safrole after steam distillation. root beer plant (piper auritum) all parts=80% safrole after steam distillation.is a weed in florida .easy to grow. foliage can take light frost .roots hardy to 15f. asarone: calamus root(sweet flag) found in the swamps of s.canada & n. USA.oil was banned in 1968.easy to grow from seed.must have triploid or tetraploid.diploid has no asarone.steam distillation of root. how to make a still; first you need a large pressure cooker with a bottom grate.fill cooker with raw botanicals and cover with water.15ft. of copper tubbing is connected to lid where weight or gauge goes.bend the tubbing to form coils and submerge in a ice water bath in a wash tub.the end of the tubing pokes out the bottom of the tub is silicone sealed.the end of the tubbing drips oil and water into a large glass jug.after the cook off let the oil water separate.pour the oil into separation funnel to get residual water out.watch these video to make it clearer.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKUFfZODLRs

hydroponichronic
2008-10-29, 21:28
While we're on tryptamines, there wouldn't happen to be a tryptamine precursor with something in the 4 position, would there? I imagine is there were any way that was even NEAR doable, there would be massive money there. You don't read much about artificial routes to 4-OH-DMT so it might not be readily possible, but if there is one...

DiamondX
2008-10-29, 23:23
While we're on tryptamines, there wouldn't happen to be a tryptamine precursor with something in the 4 position, would there? I imagine is there were any way that was even NEAR doable, there would be massive money there. You don't read much about artificial routes to 4-OH-DMT so it might not be readily possible, but if there is one...

Check out 15-24 of TiHKAL (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml) for synthetic tryptamines with something in the 4 position, theres actually quite a few in TiHKAL. 4-substituted indoles would probably be suitable precursors, Shulgin used 4-hydroxyindole for 4-OH-DET.

hydroponichronic
2008-10-30, 03:29
Check out 15-24 of TiHKAL (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml) for synthetic tryptamines with something in the 4 position, theres actually quite a few in TiHKAL. 4-substituted indoles would probably be suitable precursors, Shulgin used 4-hydroxyindole for 4-OH-DET.

Good read, but the synth itself is far from OTC, even given a source of 4OH-indole. One thing I always think about is trying to run (P/T)ihkal syths without a full lab setup. I don't know how essential vacuum distillation is, but I think working without would mean to become accustomed to solvents in one's products. Yuck.

DiamondX
2008-10-30, 04:03
Vacuum distillation is usually essential, since the vacuum lowers the boiling temp for chemicals that would otherwise decompose or ignite before they boil.

nshanin
2008-10-30, 14:17
On 4-OH-DET, Shulgin describes how mushrooms will hydroxylate any tryptamine they come across, so if you do happen to have a lot of mushrooms and some random tryptamine, you should be able to hydroxylate it. But then again, if you have that many shrooms, why would you be making 4-OH anything?

bluegreen
2008-10-31, 11:26
there was talk about growing shrooms on trypamine rich phallaris grass straw to make super shrooms.http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/psychedelicchemistry/chapter3.html

hydroponichronic
2008-10-31, 22:14
there was talk about growing shrooms on trypamine rich phallaris grass straw to make super shrooms.http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/psychedelicchemistry/chapter3.html

Hmm... What about simply extracted Tryptophan (from supplements)? I don't know much about shroom growing, other than sterility is of the utmost importance. So, whether the idea of adding amino acids to the uh... "fertilizer pile" would be a bad thing, I don't know.

nshanin
2008-10-31, 23:56
Hmm... What about simply extracted Tryptophan (from supplements)? I don't know much about shroom growing, other than sterility is of the utmost importance. So, whether the idea of adding amino acids to the uh... "fertilizer pile" would be a bad thing, I don't know.

It works but not as effectively, though it certainly would be far more concentrated than the grass. Read 4-OH-DET in Pihkal and you'll get the picture (or at least some leads).

hydroponichronic
2008-11-03, 11:12
It works but not as effectively, though it certainly would be far more concentrated than the grass. Read 4-OH-DET in Pihkal and you'll get the picture (or at least some leads).

I read the 4-HO-DET stuff, but it still looks more complicated than I'd like, then again, if it didn't this wouldn't be a problem. Would 4-OH-indole be made or sourced? After that, I imagine the rest could be simplified to a more readily doable synth.

Also, like with JP's phenylalanine cocktail, are there specific nutrients we know of that the shroom's enzymes use to turn tryptophan ---> good stuff? In humans case trypo + niacin + folic acid + other stuff---> serotonin and such. What about a tryptamine cocktail for shrooms? I guess the question that arises now is what do they need to make the transformation?

nshanin
2008-11-03, 12:30
I read the 4-HO-DET stuff, but it still looks more complicated than I'd like, then again, if it didn't this wouldn't be a problem. Would 4-OH-indole be made or sourced? After that, I imagine the rest could be simplified to a more readily doable synth.
It can be sourced, and Shulign obviously prefers that method himself, but it's not nearly as straightforward as I'd like. Not nearly as easy as hydroxylating with shrooms, at least.

Also, like with JP's phenylalanine cocktail, are there specific nutrients we know of that the shroom's enzymes use to turn tryptophan ---> good stuff? In humans case trypo + niacin + folic acid + other stuff---> serotonin and such. What about a tryptamine cocktail for shrooms? I guess the question that arises now is what do they need to make the transformation?

Off to the internets you go!

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-241379.html
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6368972&fpart=1

first couple results in google by searching "tryptamine 4-hydroxylase" first without "mushrooms" and then with. Doesn't say much as far as what's needed for the enzymes, but if the research was there I suspect it would have long ago been discovered by shroom enthusiasts. I didn't find any in 3 minutes, but then again, it's 5 in the morning and I have lab write-ups, research, and a long day of politics ahead of me. You've got time on your hands, right?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/files/06-30/372469056-Precursor_Uptake.jpg

And now you've found a use for your tryptophan supplements (after you decarboxylate them, of course)!

FullMetalJacket
2008-11-05, 03:05
Can you decarboxylate tryptophan by refluxing in a high BP ketone?

nshanin
2008-11-05, 05:37
Can you decarboxylate tryptophan by refluxing in a high BP ketone?

Yes. Google "niacin decarboxylation".

FullMetalJacket
2008-11-05, 13:12
Yes. Google "niacin decarboxylation".


Oh, I'm well aware of the process when applied to niacin, I was just wanting to find out if it would still be applicable to tryptophan.

fcknut
2008-11-05, 13:43
Oh, I'm well aware of the process when applied to niacin, I was just wanting to find out if it would still be applicable to tryptophan.

I'm sure this has been brought up a number of times in the last few months... The answer is still the same I guess... (http://www.m-pab.ru/docs/rhodium/tryptophan.html)

FullMetalJacket
2008-11-05, 14:15
I'm sure this has been brought up a number of times in the last few months... The answer is still the same I guess... (http://www.m-pab.ru/docs/rhodium/tryptophan.html)

Neat, cheers.

stateofhack
2008-11-05, 17:04
Oh, I'm well aware of the process when applied to niacin, I was just wanting to find out if it would still be applicable to tryptophan.

Ketone-catalyzed decarboxylation, as described by Drone #342:
Decarboxylation is accomplished by mixing about 80 g tryptophan in 250 mL of high-boiling solvent (xylene, DMSO, cyclohexanol, etc.), adding a dash of a ketone (I like 5 g of cyclohexanone, but a couple grams of MEK works reasonably well), heat it to around 150 deg, and when evolution of CO2 ceases/solution is clear, the reaction is complete. This takes anywhere from 1.5 to 4 hours. After this is over, the solvent is boiled off (or at least greatly reduced in volume), and the residue is dissolved in DCM. This is washed with a 5% NaHCO3 solution, then a distilled water solution, then the DCM layer is separated off, dried with MgSO4, and the DCM is boiled off. You now have reasonably pure tryptamine.

Works fine for me, JoePedo do you mind posting the spearmint oil catalised converison of tryptophan to tryptamine? I can't seem to find it in my files :(

Von Bass
2008-11-05, 17:29
Works fine for me, JoePedo do you mind posting the spearmint oil catalised converison of tryptophan to tryptamine? I can't seem to find it in my files :(


Spearmint Oil Catalyzed Decarboxylation of Tryptophan

by "Student"

A mixture of 75 mL of turpentine (1), 7.14 grams of L-tryptophan (2), and 15 drops (0.25 grams; 0.3 mL) of spearmint oil (3) were placed in a 250 mL Erlenmeyer flask. A water cooled reflux condenser (4) was attached to the flask by a rubber stopper (5). The mixture in the flask was boiled (6)fast enough that there was at least one drop returning to the flask from the condenser every second. The mixture became transparent in four hours and heating was turned off after another 30 minutes. There was a little yellow solid on the side of the flask above the liquid. After sitting overnight there was a clump of yellow crystals in the corner of the flask and solidified dark oil across the bottom. The flask was refrigerated for the day and the orangish mother liquor was poured off.

The impure tryptamine was purified as follows (7). To the flask were added 150 mL of 5% distilled household vinegar along with 5 mL of chloroform (8) and the flask was briskly swirled until all solid was gone and there was only a little dark brown oil not dissolved in the yellow suspension. The hazy yellow liquid (pH 5-6) upper layer was filtered through a plug of cotton. The small amount of dark brown lower organic layer was extracted with another 10 mL of vinegar, and the resulting upper layer was filtered through the cotton plug. To the combined filtrates were added 5 mL of chloroform and enough sodium bicarbonate (10.58 g) in portions so that further addition caused very little foaming. The flask was swirled thoroughly and the hazy yellow aqueous upper layer was filtered through a fresh plug of cotton. The filtrate was cooled in the freezer for 15 minutes, basified with 12 mL of 25% sodium hydroxide solution, and set back in the freezer for 30 minutes. The solid was dislodged from the sides with a metal scoop and the mixture was filtered through filter paper (9). The flask and crystals were rinsed with 100 mL of ice cold household ammonia in portions (10). The filter paper was pressed between paper towels until damp and set aside to dry. The light yellow crystals weighed 3.64 grams (65% yield).

The turpentine mother liquor from the last reaction, still containing spearmint oil and some tryptamine, was used directly to decarboxylate 7.23 grams of L-tryptophan. This time the reaction took seven hours to become transparent, so apparently some of the catalyst was consumed during the first reaction. This time both the turpentine and the solid product were extracted with vinegar as above, and brought through the same purification process, to give 5.21 grams (92% yield) of light yellow crystals. The combined yield of tryptamine for the last two reactions is 79%. The solid melted at 117-118.5C (Merck 118C) and had one tan spot (Rf ~0.1 - 0.2) on silica TLC, eluting with methanol containing ~50 mg of ammonium carbonate.

Notes:


1. If xylene (bp 118C) is used as the solvent, the reaction will require about one week to complete, but the product will probably separate as crystals and be purer than if turpentine is used. If turpentine (bp 154-170C) is used, the reaction will take several hours, but part of the product may come out as an oil. If difficulty is encountered obtaining a solid from a reaction using turpentine, place the flask in boiling water to cool. After a few minutes add a seed crystal and let the water cool slowly with the flask in it. This may allow complete crystallization of the product.

2. It is possible that 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) would successfully decarboxylate under these conditions, giving 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin). However, obtaining pure starting material from the mixtures marketed as 5-HTP may be a challenge.

3. The key to this reaction is the catalytic activity of carvone, an enone found in spearmint oil. The catalytic activity of enones was first reported by M. Hashimoto5. The spearmint oil (50% L-carvone) must be the pure essential oil, not an extract. Other oils which may also work are caraway (58% D-carvone), dill (50% D-carvone) or pennyroyal oil (85% pugelone). Successful decarboxylation using butanone under the above conditions (reported by another author) could not be reproduced. Good yields were reported in a Russian journal by refluxing tryptophan in acetophenone.

4. A cork may be used instead of a rubber stopper. Cork doesn't seal as well as rubber, but it is less likely to contaminate and color the product.

5. The rate of boiling needs to be sufficient to prevent the reaction mixture from being exposed to air. Air exposure causes a dark deposit to form on the flask walls, and no product can be isolated from it even by acid extraction. In a sufficiently spacious flask, the wall of the flask which is above the liquid surface can serve as an air condenser so that no condenser needs to be attached. Alternatively, an air condenser (air-cooled glass tube) is very effective with high boiling liquids, and even xylene boils high enough in this case to be made to work. The important thing is to keep the vapor part of the way up the tube, so that air doesn't reach the reaction mixture nor does vapor climb to the mouth of the tube (heating the entire tube to xylene's bp) and escape. Using the solvent vapor to exclude air renders an inert atmosphere unnecessary.

6. Magnetic stirring isn't required for this reaction if the boiling is sufficiently vigorous to keep the solid tryptophan suspended in the solvent. Boiling stones may also be unnecessary, since the tiny bubbles of carbon dioxide produced during decarboxylation serve as nuclei the way the bubbles in boiling stones do. Heat was provided by an electric hot plate with a sparkless electronic thermostat. Since these solvents are flammable, the use of flame heating is not recommended.

7. This purification process was modeled after the tryptamine purification outlined in the Tryptophan and Tryptamine FAQ.

8. There is what sounds like an excellent procedure for the preparation of chloroform from bleach and acetone in this document. Others have reported excellent results with trichloroethylene instead.

9. Coffee filter paper will probably work instead of laboratory filter paper.

10. The use of cold household (clear) ammonia for washing is very important. Washing with water will cause the product to quickly dissolve! ChemFinder.com lists the solubility of tryptamine in water as 34 g/L.



I totally just stole JP's glory, its handily enough on the above link posted, and in most arcHives. :)

nshanin
2008-11-05, 20:20
Oh, I'm well aware of the process when applied to niacin, I was just wanting to find out if it would still be applicable to tryptophan.

No I mean seriously google it--

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2139508

That's the first result; JP links to a cool article on tryptophan there.

FullMetalJacket
2008-11-06, 12:51
No I mean seriously google it--

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2139508

That's the first result; JP links to a cool article on tryptophan there.

Oh, coolio article indeed.

stateofhack
2008-11-06, 21:52
I totally just stole JP's glory, its handily enough on the above link posted, and in most arcHives. :)

Thanks!