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View Full Version : ammonia nitrate + diesel fuel or......


RedHatcc
2008-12-05, 16:56
Hey,

i live way out in the country.. and have huge fields that are dissed up right now with nothing growing in them so were looking to make some fire works.

We had two ideas..


1. Mix ammonia nitrate and diesel fuel to a slur and have a sparkler bomb ignite it (we have mastered the sparkler bomb in galvanized pipe haha) or

2. Mix nitrogen (from fertilizer) and diesel fuel to a slur and have a sparkler bomb ignite it as well.



NOW, we have never set either off, and i know that the nitrogen one should work since thats what they use around here to get rid of stumps to make fields lol but would the ammonia nitrate work as well? Or would either work? And if so how large are we looking at ( so i know how far to stand away haha)

RedHatcc
2008-12-05, 19:27
ahh... well reading into it more i find that a metal pipe + sparklers or gun powder wont work because of it not being strong enough or something >.<


any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated for a blasting cap or ignition?

warweed12
2008-12-05, 19:35
Ohhh so many things i could say but im in such a good mood today

lets get some things clear


Potassium Nitrate is the chemical commonly used for stump removal

Ammonia Nitrate is used in fertilizing fiealds

Both contain nitrogen ... neither of which are strictly nitrogen

Ammonia Nitrate on it's own in a explosive .. but by mixing diesel fuel in with it well yeah all you really need to know is it is more powerful ...

now the next thing you need to know is there are several classes of explosives in this case the mixture your attempting to make "ANFO" or Ammonia Nitrate Fuel Oil

is Classed under the High Explosives catagory ..

which in reality means hit it with a hammer toss it off a cliff light it on fire torch it .. stick a pipe bomb in it ... and it just will not have the "shock" to "detonate" the ANFO

other such examples are TNT RDX and ANNM ect...


you will more then likly will want a primary explosive ..


but most easily made primarys are also extremly unstable organic peroxides ...

things like HMTD and Acetone Peroixde (google)


personally i have worked with acetone peroxide alot ... and have not had a accident yet but thats not to say MANY people haven't had accidents with it believe me there are alot of storys on here about it ..

oh yeah and if you do deside to do this .... with the Acetone Peroxide route 30% peroxide can be found in health food / herbalist stores and as well hydroponics shops

cheers,

warweed

warweed12
2008-12-05, 19:39
Also i wanted to clarify shock .... this is the shock wave generated when somthing explodes ...

a pipe bomb will generate a shock wave but just not one strong enough to cause the actual detonation of the ANFO

this is why we need a explosive with a high VoD or Velocity of Detonation

here is some reading material

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO

i also suggest you register at my site warweed.com and check the downloads section

RedHatcc
2008-12-05, 20:12
thanks warweed for the very very good info on the topic!

so basically there wouldnt be anything you could pick up from a medium size city for under $100 that would give it enough shock or VoD to cause the ANFO to explode?

We only have the basic tools around the shop (drill, pipes... imagine a metal works shop :D )


thanks again warweed and yes i'll check out your site fo sho!

RedHatcc
2008-12-05, 20:26
also found this here on totse

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/162660.html


this sounds like the best method that i can find so far of making an ANFO explode (AP/AN Booster).


btw im realy new at all this so im researching alot before taking part in anything haha

iceshrike
2008-12-06, 03:31
Your new and Inexperienced. Do not use AP as a cap, and especially if its got a large secondary behind it. Oh and AN won't det well unless its paired with fuel or has a booster. I like that you said your researching. Read more, and it could very well save your life.

MH-iforgotmypassword
2008-12-06, 05:11
First, @ warweed: Wow. I expected you to devour this kid. I'm impressed.


this sounds like the best method that i can find so far of making an ANFO explode (AP/AN Booster).

btw im realy new at all this so im researching alot before taking part in anything haha

You managed to avoid being flamed and ignored by a hairs-breadth, what with the sparkler-bomb-anfo question. Anyways, play with AP alone, then APAN alone, and then AP+APAN+ANFO. But better yet, move on to another, more stable explosive... its not that hard when you walk through from the beginning, and its really enjoyable to learn.

And don't worry too much about sourcing chems, organic explosives are surprisingly simple in that regard.

warweed12
2008-12-06, 06:42
First, @ warweed: Wow. I expected you to devour this kid. I'm impressed.



You managed to avoid being flamed and ignored by a hairs-breadth, what with the sparkler-bomb-anfo question. Anyways, play with AP alone, then APAN alone, and then AP+APAN+ANFO. But better yet, move on to another, more stable explosive... its not that hard when you walk through from the beginning, and its really enjoyable to learn.

And don't worry too much about sourcing chems, organic explosives are surprisingly simple in that regard.


yeaaaaah like i said i was having a good day :)

and i would rather provide correct info then non at all and try some anarchist cookbook bullshit that will kill him

as for the under 100 dollars like i said AP i can make very very large quanitys of AP for 100 dollars lol thats labware solvents and peroxides ect...

i would reccomend you make a *very* small amount of AP to begin with some were in the 4-10 gram range and play with that

don't use metals or pipes avoid at all possible costs especially with peroxides

instead learn to roll paper tubes out of kraft paper or use small pen tubes you will get a sence of how powerful it is by take a needle size of it on a butter knife or small blade and touching a flame to it

RedHatcc
2008-12-06, 15:45
And don't worry too much about sourcing chems, organic explosives are surprisingly simple in that regard.

i probally will lean more towards less dangerous stuff for the time until i can get a better idea on how explosives work... i tend to value my life haha


but out of explosive stuff we've realy only made sparkler bombs in metal pipe, and metal pipes with gun powder from shotgun shells them sort of things so our experience is haha LOW

but would you have an idea mabe on a "safer" to handle and make explosive then the whole AP and all... because from what i read can be very dangerous to handle and make (i need my hands and fingers for praying!) haha

warweed12
2008-12-06, 17:58
well first things first.... stop making "bombs" lol

the intention can't always be to blow things up


secondly 90% of shot gun shells these days are not black powder alot of people get gun powder and black powder confused but the powder in shot gun shells is usally a double base smokeless powder ....

you seem to have access to some agracultual chemicals ...

thou by chance do you have access to nitric acid ?

madmentos
2008-12-07, 07:01
all i aheve to add is a video of what happens if you fuck this up

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4364504038145957401&ei=RXQ7ScCZIKOKiQKfvKGpAw&q=high+explosive

looks like nothing?

that shrapnel, will kill you dead instantly, no question.


and if its, metal shrapnel, you will be stuck to the walls.
containing explosive, with no where for it to expland is very dangerous.

RedHatcc
2008-12-08, 19:20
thou by chance do you have access to nitric acid ?

idk for sure right off hand but i can check some of our storage sheds and see what we have where

==========================


also i wanted to ask... could i use AP to detonate a anfo? just curious cause i read that most anfo's would need something with the velocity of 1000ft/sec and AP (from what i read online) is around 1600ft/sec ?

warweed12
2008-12-08, 22:38
Acetone Peroxide has a Explosive velocity of 17,385 FT/s im guessing but i would suspect that the vod required would be in the 4500-6000 FT/s range as No.8 Blasting caps use a Mercury fulminate KClO3 mix which is in about that range for commercial ANFO detonation

however from personal experiance i can say i have very successfully detonated ANFO and other AN based mixtures such as ALAN (aluminum and AN) ANNM (AN and Nitromethane) and ANWAX(AN and Parrafin Wax) with Acetone Peroxide and AN mix that is Powdered Ammonia Nitrate and Acetone Peroxide mixed together in a 6:4

thou confinment is nessicary to hold the ANFO together long enough to reach full det .. otherwise you may end up with a "splatter effect" that is ANFO just being splattered about before detonation is reached i used a small HDPE container with a screw on lid with a hole drilled through the lid for my "blasting cap" then wrapped it like all of 4 times with ductape :D mans best friend

i would say i reached 95% - full detonation of ANFO with a 1 gram AP blasting cap pressed lightly in a pen tube inserted in a 10 gram secondary of 6/4 AN AP which was in 2kg of ANFO

give you an idea what a 2kg surface det will look like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSwLhK_-Wps

RedHatcc
2008-12-09, 17:40
i've found some mixed answers via google on the safety of making Acetone Peroxide, and you know a pretty good bit and straight foward about it so i though i would ask you...

i found a good tutorial on totse showing a way to make AP pretty good... but what is the danger level in making AP if you follow the directions very closely?

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/162155.html

warweed12
2008-12-09, 21:11
Well i don't like that tutorial persay

this is quoted from a very highly reputable site


To a 500-mL beaker add 50 mL of acetone, then stir in 30 mL of 30% hydrogen peroxide. Place the beaker in a salt-ice bath and cool it to 5 C. After cooling, slowly add 3 mL of 75% sulfuric acid drop by drop with an eye dropper. Stir the mixture continuously while adding the acid, keep the temperature between 5 C to 10 C; stop adding acid if the temperature gets to high. It is very important that you moderate the reaction, high temperatures will lower your yield and cause the formation of the less useful dicyclo isomer. After adding all the acid, continue stirring for 5 minutes. Keep the mixture in the bath for 1 to 3 hours, or even up to 24 hours. After sitting, a white precipitate should have formed. Filter the mixture to collect the crystals, then wash them with 300-500 mL of water. Allow the crystals to dry before using, keep them damp if storing. For increased purity, add the precipitate to ethyl ether and let it dissolve. Place the ethyl ether solution in a separatory funnel and wash by shaking with three portions of cold water. Add the ethyl ether solution to a beaker and heat it on a steam bath to evaporate the ethyl ether. It should take about 3 hours to dry. You will need a graduated cylinder for measuring liquids, a stirring rod or magnetic stirrer for mixing, and a thermometer to monitor the temperature.




The only sub i would make if you can not obtain *pure* sulfuric acid is you get Hydrochloric Acid (HCl)
and i use about 35-40 Ml's

and H2O2 is easy to find in food stores or hydropoincs shops

RedHatcc
2008-12-10, 20:46
that looks pretty straight foward.. i was thinking about looking more into it and maybe making a small amount of AP this week to see how it goes... but is there any big dangers in making this stuff (blowing up on you or gases that are released?) or the main thing is just trying to get a good yield when making it?

keep the temperature between 5 C to 10 C; stop adding acid if the temperature gets to high. It is very important that you moderate the reaction

also from what i read that the temp is very important and if you don't maintain a good 5C- 10C it could ruin the whole yield.

and thanks again for all the help man!

warweed12
2008-12-10, 23:19
Well to be honest the temprature is mainly to maker sure you try and not make the more unstable and less useful dicylo isomer BE 100% honest i have never really paid much attention to temprature .. i usally ball park the temp by touch ...

NOW this is somthing I do .... im not saying this as advice ... because you should most certainly follow temprature closly aspecially for a first time ... a couple degrees here and there is not going to kill you persay .... but it is a good practise to get into as other synth's are certainly not as forgiving ... also temprature may lower your yeild but it certainly won't ruin the whole yeild

as for gases ... you really should not have to worrie if the temprature is high you may get acetone vapour or the H2O2 will bother your eyes ...

generally a good practise is to do these things a fairly well ventalated area..

(also do not store your AP in a fridge freezer or so on )

unless you want your food tasting like ass .. as well it is a safty concern as others may have access to it that don't understand it ...



another thing you should do is never make mroe then your going to use and use it as soon as it is ready ... I personally would never trust stored AP ...


Make sure your AP is completly nutral

washing several times first with water to remove excessive acid then 2-3 times with bicarb solution
then once or twice more to remove excess bicarb (if any)

then if your impatient and want it to dry waaaaay quicker wash it once with rubbing alchol and gentally spread out the AP on paper of sorts it should dry fairly quick if spread out and in a warm area


I also highly suggest you get one of these

http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/2/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/1786631

http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/2228961/vpcsid/0/SFV/30852

or one a bit bigger

that is a vaccum filtration system it creates a vaccume inside the flash via the hand pump and litterally sucks the liquid out ..

if you do deside to get one always use 2 filter papers ;) and if you keep pumping it actually sucks the liquid out of the AP drying it right then and there :)

i love mine have had it for about 5 years now .. generally if i do my first pull on the AP with out nutralizing it i will put the liquid asside and take the bulk of the AP that has formed .. and let the rest chillax in the cold for a while .. see if any else forms

thou i found that a majority of the AP is formed in the first 15 - 20 min with 30% h2o2 and HCl

MH-iforgotmypassword
2008-12-11, 00:54
(also do not store your AP in a fridge freezer or so on )

unless you want your food tasting like ass .. as well it is a safty concern as others may have access to it that don't understand it ...


Plastic wrap and a rubber band... I tend to move my ice bath to the fridge after the first 20minutes of mixing + such. Never had any problems with food tasting weird, although one time it was a shared fridge and my roommates were leaving coffee in there for weeks making everything taste weird anyway...

warweed12
2008-12-11, 01:17
meh my rule is just that if you do not plan on eating it don't put it in the fridge ...

have a seperate fridge dedicated for this sort of thing

Mokothar
2008-12-11, 21:22
A lot of people ... trustworthy people have made hot batches of AP and did not notice an increase in sensitivity. Me, I keep my RV cold because I work with HCl and I absolutely loathe the smell of that stuff.

meh my rule is just that if you do not plan on eating it don't put it in the fridge ...


Does this apply to women as well?

blazncow
2008-12-21, 04:25
Could you use a fuse to set off alan or anwax also could you tell how to make it or give me a reliable link thanks in advance.

warweed12
2008-12-21, 07:39
What part of AN comp's are not fuse sensitive did you not understand out of this ENTIRE thread... i even broke it down several times