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  #201  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:19 AM
Nagatzumi Nagatzumi is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

Apple sells MacBooks for 3 grand and these guys are the criminals

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  #202  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:11 AM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by sevenTwo View Post
Is calling me names all you can do? Shows a lot of weakness.
I guess it's pretty useless talking with you since you can't back up anything you say.
I don't need to link you to it. It's a fact and it simply exists. Please prove to me that 5+5=10. I'll wait here.
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  #203  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:31 AM
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I don't need to link you to it. It's a fact and it simply exists. Please prove to me that 5+5=10. I'll wait here.
You know, that question is actually pretty difficult. 5+5=10 ultimately reduces to the 1+1=2 proof and it took two legendary mathematicians, Bertrand Russell and Alfred North Whitehead, to publish a paper with regards the relations of cardinal coupling for 1+1=2. (You will probably need a strong background of set theory and logic to follow it though.)
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...=image&seq=401
You can read the full text if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/Principia-Math.../dp/052106791X

So now that I provided you some points of references, please deliver.
I'll wait here.

Last edited by sevenTwo; 08-13-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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  #204  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sevenTwo View Post
You know, that question is actually pretty difficult. 5+5=10 ultimately reduces to the 1+1=2 proof and it took two legendary mathematicians, Bertrand Russell and Alfred North Whitehead, to publish a paper with regards the relations of cardinal coupling for 1+1=2. (You will probably need a strong background of set theory and logic to follow it though.)
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...=image&seq=401
You can read the full text if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/Principia-Math.../dp/052106791X

So now that I provided you some points of references, please deliver.
I'll wait here.

I know those proofs; I studied them. The point is that while something is difficult to prove (because nobody gives a shit about the early ipods any more) doesn't change the truth of the matter.
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  #205  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Falcon View Post
I don't need to link you to it. It's a fact and it simply exists. Please prove to me that 5+5=10. I'll wait here.
By the way, accepting something to *just* simply be true is probably bad. You should fix that mindset with regards to learning. Axioms don't count since the language of mathematics is built on them.
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  #206  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:40 AM
sevenTwo sevenTwo is offline
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I know those proofs; I studied them. The point is that while something is difficult to prove (because nobody gives a shit about the early ipods any more) doesn't change the truth of the matter.
So you can't prove it? LOLL
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  #207  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

LOL@CF lying to cover his lie.
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  #208  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by sevenTwo View Post
By the way, accepting something to *just* simply be true is probably bad. You should fix that mindset with regards to learning. Axioms don't count since the language of mathematics is built on them.
Read above; you're intentionally missing the point. Keep your mindless drivel out of this thread, pls.

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So you can't prove it? LOLL
I could, but it's a demonstrative proof and you'd bitch about it either way. If you want to test it yourself, be my guest. Try loading any file with a bitrate above 96kbps to a first or second gen iPod (the discontinued "classic" line, of course) and watch as it gets downconverted.

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LOL@CF lying to cover his lie.
Says the dude who's been pretending to be a chick for years to get pity from people on a message board
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  #209  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
The benefit lies in consumers that want a new phone every six months. By churning out slightly upgraded models with low durability and therefore costs
You still don't understand what planned obsolescence refers to it seems. This argument is pointless as long as you are unable to learn what the term actually means.

Keeping on rereading this quote from me until you understand is probably your best bet:

"Upon rereading your posts, based on the entirety of the posts, assuming you have had the same viewpoint the whole time (actually it looks to me like you have shifted it but I won't get into that), your problem appears to be that you are looking at planned obsolescence in this manner: "Planning for the fact that your product will go obsolete at some known point.". If you wish to understand how everyone else uses the term, perhaps the alternative term will help you glean some understanding. Built in obsolescence, i.e. "Building in a mechanism to make sure the product goes obsolete at some known point"."

Planning for the fact that objects have a lifetime is indeed common and this is what is confusing you. Purposefully making it go obsolete is different.

Good luck.
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  #210  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by Captain Falcon View Post
I could, but it's a demonstrative proof and you'd bitch about it either way. If you want to test it yourself, be my guest. Try loading any file with a bitrate above 96kbps to a first or second gen iPod (the discontinued "classic" line, of course) and watch as it gets downconverted.
That's a feature of iTunes, you change it with a check box .

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Nice ad hominem brah.
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  #211  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:35 AM
Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
That's a feature of iTunes, you change it with a check box .
from memory it used to be forced - the only filetype the early ipods would accept was aac, anything else you dragged in was automatically transcoded
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  #212  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland View Post
from memory it used to be forced - the only filetype the early ipods would accept was aac, anything else you dragged in was automatically transcoded
I'll buy the "transcoded to AAC" but I'd still want to see some actual proof that iTunes would reduce the bitrate.
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  #213  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
That's a feature of iTunes, you change it with a check box
No, don't be a fucking idiot. It reduced the bitrate directly. Try it, faggot.
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  #214  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
I'll buy the "transcoded to AAC" but I'd still want to see some actual proof that iTunes would reduce the bitrate.
He's not going to prove it because he has no proof. He made it pretty clear. That's why he has reduced to petty name calling and cheap jabs. It's cute, really. Just ignore him until he actually has proof otherwise it's going to be a useless argument.
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  #215  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:29 AM
Zombie Food Zombie Food is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

lol apple haters.

Just fuck off and let people enjoy what they want?


My only issue with apple (well, most technology companies) is their price hike for dem gb's.
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  #216  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
You still don't understand what planned obsolescence refers to it seems. This argument is pointless as long as you are unable to learn what the term actually means.

Keeping on rereading this quote from me until you understand is probably your best bet:

"Upon rereading your posts, based on the entirety of the posts, assuming you have had the same viewpoint the whole time (actually it looks to me like you have shifted it but I won't get into that), your problem appears to be that you are looking at planned obsolescence in this manner: "Planning for the fact that your product will go obsolete at some known point.". If you wish to understand how everyone else uses the term, perhaps the alternative term will help you glean some understanding. Built in obsolescence, i.e. "Building in a mechanism to make sure the product goes obsolete at some known point"."

Planning for the fact that objects have a lifetime is indeed common and this is what is confusing you. Purposefully making it go obsolete is different.

Good luck.
Stop using the definition I've been using and acting like that's what you've said this whole time. You're twisting my words and meanings to suit your own argument which, at this point, doesn't even make sense since you've shifted back and forth so many times.

I haven't defined it as good for the consumer, that's simply a result of the process. Likewise, low durability/low cost ISN'T the definition of planned obsolescence, but PO either uses or results in those things. Is your grasp of English strong enough to understand that? Let me put it a different way:

Your idiocy isn't defined as your inability to understand what I'm saying; however, your idiocy results in your inability to understand what I'm saying. Does that example help? Cause and effect aren't equivalent to definition. The definition I've stated and supported this whole time is the one you've suddenly decided to use and, in an effort to save face, you continue to misrepresent what I have said and am saying. You defined the process as malicious and bad for the consumer. I have proved that it is often beneficial or desired because it results in variability and low cost. You then tried to act as if I'm defining it as meant to help consumers, when I never said that.
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  #217  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Stop using the definition I've been using and acting like that's what you've said this whole time. You're twisting my words and meanings to suit your own argument which, at this point, doesn't even make sense since you've shifted back and forth so many times.

I haven't defined it as good for the consumer, that's simply a result of the process. Likewise, low durability/low cost ISN'T the definition of planned obsolescence, but PO either uses or results in those things. Is your grasp of English strong enough to understand that? Let me put it a different way:

Your idiocy isn't defined as your inability to understand what I'm saying; however, your idiocy results in your inability to understand what I'm saying. Does that example help? Cause and effect aren't equivalent to definition. The definition I've stated and supported this whole time is the one you've suddenly decided to use and, in an effort to save face, you continue to misrepresent what I have said and am saying. You defined the process as malicious and bad for the consumer. I have proved that it is often beneficial or desired because it results in variability and low cost. You then tried to act as if I'm defining it as meant to help consumers, when I never said that.
I don't really see a point in arguing with you any more. I've explained this all in full in previous points already. Either you understand but don't want to admit it, or are incapable of understanding due to your current mindset, or all your qualitative words (e.g. often, low,), in your head, are meaning something completely different to how they come across to anyone else so it's actually impossible for anyone to communicate with you.

Basically you are just arguing about how common and how not harmful something different to what the rest of the world perceives planned obsolescence to be is.
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  #218  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:54 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
I don't really see a point in arguing with you any more. I've explained this all in full in previous points already. Either you understand but don't want to admit it, or are incapable of understanding due to your current mindset, or all your qualitative words (e.g. often, low,), in your head, are meaning something completely different to how they come across to anyone else so it's actually impossible for anyone to communicate with you.

Basically you are just arguing about how common and how not harmful something different to what the rest of the world perceives planned obsolescence to be is.
Sorry the world "perceives" the idea incorrectly.

I'm also sorry I've bruised your ego. Sincerely. I should be more gentle with idiots from now on. If you point out mistakes too aggressively to people like you, they get too butthurt too quickly for productive conversation to resume.

Allow me to summarize this whole argument:

1. Nereth states that planned obsolescence is a malicious, greedy process designed to fuck over customers and is not widely used.

2. I point out that that's not the definition of it and, in fact, modern customers tend to prefer the low cost, trashable, and variable products that PO produces. On top of that, it's used in most consumer products.

3. Nereth and his buttbuddies post several definitions that confirm what I said but then claim that it isn't defined as beneficial to the customer.

4. I point out that I never said that was the definition, merely the result.

5. Nereth refuses to admit any mistake.

6. Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5 ad until the sun swallows the Earth.

People sadden me.
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  #219  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:34 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Sorry the world "perceives" the idea incorrectly.

I'm also sorry I've bruised your ego. Sincerely. I should be more gentle with idiots from now on. If you point out mistakes too aggressively to people like you, they get too butthurt too quickly for productive conversation to resume.

Allow me to summarize this whole argument:

1. Nereth states that planned obsolescence is a malicious, greedy process designed to fuck over customers and is not widely used.

2. I point out that that's not the definition of it and, in fact, modern customers tend to prefer the low cost, trashable, and variable products that PO produces. On top of that, it's used in most consumer products.

3. Nereth and his buttbuddies post several definitions that confirm what I said but then claim that it isn't defined as beneficial to the customer.

4. I point out that I never said that was the definition, merely the result.

5. Nereth refuses to admit any mistake.

6. Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5 ad until the sun swallows the Earth.

People sadden me.
Alternately,

Crazyass refuses to use the accepted meaning of a term in a discussion and thus attempts to argue a point noone else cares about or is discussing; that avoiding overengineering is generally good for all parties since it can save cost to consumers. Crazyass uses this fact that noone really disputes to declare himself correct regarding built in obsolescence, a specific process that may be mistaken for avoiding overengineering to save cost, but actually refers to something much more specific.

Basically your argument is;

1) Engineers commonly try to reduce overengineering, which generally saves consumers money
2) Planned obsolescence is a technique that may reduce overengineering
3) Therefore planned obsolescence is commonly used by engineers and generally saves consumers money.

Obviously 3 does not follow.
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  #220  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:37 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
Alternately,

Crazyass refuses to use the accepted meaning of a term in a discussion and thus attempts to argue a point noone else cares about or is discussing; that avoiding overengineering is generally good for all parties since it can save cost to consumers. Crazyass uses this fact that noone really disputes to declare himself correct regarding built in obsolescence, a specific process that may be mistaken for avoiding overengineering to save cost, but actually refers to something much more specific.

Basically your argument is;

1) Engineers commonly try to reduce overengineering, which generally saves consumers money
2) Planned obsolescence is a technique that may reduce overengineering
3) Therefore planned obsolescence is commonly used by engineers and generally saves consumers money.

Obviously 3 does not follow.
Except that your own sources mentioned that it's used in many products.
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  #221  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:47 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Except that your own sources mentioned that it's used in many products.
Wikipedia mentioned "it is used in many products", and in the same way as you interpreted the phrase

"There is, however, the potential backlash of consumers who learn that the manufacturer invested money to make the product obsolete faster"

to mean "consumers could learn that the manufacturer invested development resources to making the product obsolete faster, and if they do not also learn that this made the cost per product cheaper, they will get angry"

I can interpret "used in many products" to mean "can and has been used in a range of different products" as opposed to "used in a significant percentage of products on the market". There are plenty of products out there for 'many' of them to fit in a category, without the majority of them fitting in that category.

The only difference being that my interpretation of the latter phrase is much less of a longshot than your quite impressively stretched interpretation of the former phrase.
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  #222  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nereth View Post
Wikipedia mentioned "it is used in many products", and in the same way as you interpreted the phrase

"There is, however, the potential backlash of consumers who learn that the manufacturer invested money to make the product obsolete faster"

to mean "consumers could learn that the manufacturer invested development resources to making the product obsolete faster, and if they do not also learn that this made the cost per product cheaper, they will get angry"

I can interpret "used in many products" to mean "can and has been used in a range of different products" as opposed to "used in a significant percentage of products on the market". There are plenty of products out there for 'many' of them to fit in a category, without the majority of them fitting in that category.

The only difference being that my interpretation of the latter phrase is much less of a longshot than your quite impressively stretched interpretation of the former phrase.
The potential blacklash has nothing to do with whether it's used in many products or not. There are many things that can cause "potential backlash", that doesn't mean it isn't done.

It's hilarious, because whether one is more of a longshot than another is entirely up to your opinion. It also diverts from the original discussion. Is PO malicious? No. Is it widespread? The only source that has mentioned anything about that has said it's used in "many products", which is of course open to interpretation. But it certainly isn't in a tiny minority of products, assuming the validity of the source.
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  #223  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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The potential blacklash has nothing to do with whether it's used in many products or not. There are many things that can cause "potential backlash", that doesn't mean it isn't done.
I never said the potential backlash had anything to do with how many products it is used in. It is related to the intent and result of using planned obsolescence. Please read my post carefully and don't try to use a straw man argument here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Is PO malicious? No.
Nobody has argued that it is malicious according to the technical definition of the term 'malice'. I've made this clear for several pages now. The only way you can pretend I have made that argument is by reading my first few posts without context. Each time I have used the word it has been in reference to how planned obsolescence is viewed in general (by society). You only need to see a few documentaries to see how it is portrayed as ethically the next best thing to 'evil' in popular culture, hence my use of the term to clarify what in particular I am talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Is it widespread? The only source that has mentioned anything about that has said it's used in "many products", which is of course open to interpretation. But it certainly isn't in a tiny minority of products, assuming the validity of the source.
Indeed it is open to interpretation. Whether it is widespread or not is the only thing I am particularly interested in talking about, the conversation started out interestingly until it became clear the data you were bringing to the table regarding how widespread it was (that an educational institution had a course on it, and that you had friends who were partaking in it) was tainted by your weird use of the word 'planned obsolescence', hence the definition argument.

Outside of that it is easy enough to find examples of its use, I am in fact using a program that is (I believe) a victim to it right now, and it is fairly easy to find popular examples of it being used if you just use google, but it is also fairly easy to look around at all the other things I am using that are not victims of it. There are plenty of pens I write with that I tend to lose out of stupidity before they become useless. I replaced my 10-15 or so year old rubber dome keyboard with a mechanical one because I had to use a computer that didn't have a PS/2 port to plug my DIN to PS/2 connector into. The mechanical keyboard I replaced it with, by all accounts, will last twice as long, god knows if it will actually reach the end of its functional life before we are all using virtual reality. I have on my table a calculator from my highschool years that I didn't even think about using for long after my final year exams, and here I am in industry still using it. My favourite hobby involves a lot of electronic equipment that I couldn't afford to buy to get into it - but I had a friend with gear from many years ago when the hobby first really became viable, and it's still working well despite the fact that it's all been replaced with multiple generations of higher tech gear.
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  #224  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:40 PM
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I never said the potential backlash had anything to do with how many products it is used in. It is related to the intent and result of using planned obsolescence. Please read my post carefully and don't try to use a straw man argument here.



Nobody has argued that it is malicious according to the technical definition of the term 'malice'. I've made this clear for several pages now. The only way you can pretend I have made that argument is by reading my first few posts without context. Each time I have used the word it has been in reference to how planned obsolescence is viewed in general (by society). You only need to see a few documentaries to see how it is portrayed as ethically the next best thing to 'evil' in popular culture, hence my use of the term to clarify what in particular I am talking about.



Indeed it is open to interpretation. Whether it is widespread or not is the only thing I am particularly interested in talking about, the conversation started out interestingly until it became clear the data you were bringing to the table regarding how widespread it was (that an educational institution had a course on it, and that you had friends who were partaking in it) was tainted by your weird use of the word 'planned obsolescence', hence the definition argument.

Outside of that it is easy enough to find examples of its use, I am in fact using a program that is (I believe) a victim to it right now, and it is fairly easy to find popular examples of it being used if you just use google, but it is also fairly easy to look around at all the other things I am using that are not victims of it. There are plenty of pens I write with that I tend to lose out of stupidity before they become useless. I replaced my 10-15 or so year old rubber dome keyboard with a mechanical one because I had to use a computer that didn't have a PS/2 port to plug my DIN to PS/2 connector into. The mechanical keyboard I replaced it with, by all accounts, will last twice as long, god knows if it will actually reach the end of its functional life before we are all using virtual reality. I have on my table a calculator from my highschool years that I didn't even think about using for long after my final year exams, and here I am in industry still using it. My favourite hobby involves a lot of electronic equipment that I couldn't afford to buy to get into it - but I had a friend with gear from many years ago when the hobby first really became viable, and it's still working well despite the fact that it's all been replaced with multiple generations of higher tech gear.
Anecdotal evidence != evidence. If we're both considering Wiki valid, the only true source we have indicates that it's used in many products.

That notwithstanding, I certainly never claimed ALL products fall prey to it anymore than you said NO products fall prey to it.

I'll say this for likely the thousandth time: popular connotations associated with the word are meaningless to me. I'm sorry that you associate it with an incorrect definition when you hear it, hence your confusion, but that's not the meaning of the word.

Just because, like, people use, like, a word, like, a certain way, like, doesn't mean, like, that's how, like, it's supposed to, idk like, be used. Does that, like, make sense? lololol leet debat0rz hear lolololololol pop culture ftw.
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  #225  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Anecdotal evidence != evidence. If we're both considering Wiki valid, the only true source we have indicates that it's used in many products.
Indeed, I was merely giving those examples preemptively in case you started listing off places where planned obsolescence was used, that there are plenty of places all around us where it isn't. At least not effectively.

And as we've said, I interpret that 'many' term differently to how you interpret it. We won't come to a consensus on that unless someone had sourced that part of the wiki article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
I'll say this for likely the thousandth time: popular connotations associated with the word are meaningless to me. I'm sorry that you associate it with an incorrect definition when you hear it, hence your confusion, but that's not the meaning of the word.
Well unfortunately it is my reading of every definition I have posted that it refers to what I have been stating it refers to. I believe you have to be trying extremely hard to look at those definitions and think of it as simply the pursuit of not wastefully overengineering a product.

Now, assuming that I understand what you think planned obsolescence refers to, and this isn't just some big misunderstanding, then if you insist on using the term your way, then please take your argument and go and make it amongst other people that use it that way, In this case that would be basically no one in this thread as far as I have seen to date no one in industry (although I'm sure statistically they would exist). No one else is interested in what you can conclude from the word when used with your definition since it isn't relevant to us and it basically isn't the same word we are using.
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  #226  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:37 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Indeed, I was merely giving those examples preemptively in case you started listing off places where planned obsolescence was used, that there are plenty of places all around us where it isn't. At least not effectively.

And as we've said, I interpret that 'many' term differently to how you interpret it. We won't come to a consensus on that unless someone had sourced that part of the wiki article.



Well unfortunately it is my reading of every definition I have posted that it refers to what I have been stating it refers to. I believe you have to be trying extremely hard to look at those definitions and think of it as simply the pursuit of not wastefully overengineering a product.

Now, assuming that I understand what you think planned obsolescence refers to, and this isn't just some big misunderstanding, then if you insist on using the term your way, then please take your argument and go and make it amongst other people that use it that way, In this case that would be basically no one in this thread as far as I have seen to date no one in industry (although I'm sure statistically they would exist). No one else is interested in what you can conclude from the word when used with your definition since it isn't relevant to us and it basically isn't the same word we are using.
Avoiding overengineering can be a part of planned obsolescence, or perhaps something that influences decisions on planned obsolescence, but it certainly isn't the definition of it. They definitely go hand in hand, however. A company deciding:

"People seem to trash this produce after six months...let's build it to last 6.5 and then fail so as to not waste resources" IS planned obsolescence!

As of right now, we're both using the same definition (though you certainly weren't when you began discussion on the topic), but you're putting words or arguments in my mouth to try and prove me wrong for whatever reason. Your vaaaast industry experience (that has you posting on Zoklet all day, interestingly enough) doesn't mean shit if you're referring to the wrong usage of the term or associating it with untrue things.

Instead of defending yourself, you're mostly hashing up things I've said, twisting them slightly, and laughing maniacally. This proves nothing.
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  #227  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by sevenTwo View Post
He's not going to prove it because he has no proof. He made it pretty clear. That's why he has reduced to petty name calling and cheap jabs. It's cute, really. Just ignore him until he actually has proof otherwise it's going to be a useless argument.
As opposed to the one who refuses to accept that it's there, it's provable and it's a fact and his only justification for shutting his ears is "tralalalalala I can't hear you". The namecalling is just to emphasize how much of a retard you are for that fact.
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  #228  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:57 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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"People seem to trash this produce after six months...let's build it to last 6.5 and then fail so as to not waste resources" IS planned obsolescence!
No, *that* is a stupid idea. Probably just wording rather than intent though so let me try to decipher:

What I think you were trying to describe is this:

People seem to trash this produce after six months... It can fail whenever the hell it wants but lets not invest any money past making it last 6 months since that would be a waste of resources, although we don't actually care if our cheapest option has it lasting 18 months, whatever works.

This is indeed common practice and I never said it wasn't. It is not, however, planned obsolescence.

Planned obsolescence is:

People seem to trash this produce after six months...let's build it to last 5 so we can get more sales when they have to replace it sooner
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  #229  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:29 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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No, *that* is a stupid idea. Probably just wording rather than intent though so let me try to decipher:

What I think you were trying to describe is this:

People seem to trash this produce after six months... It can fail whenever the hell it wants but lets not invest any money past making it last 6 months since that would be a waste of resources, although we don't actually care if our cheapest option has it lasting 18 months, whatever works.

This is indeed common practice and I never said it wasn't. It is not, however, planned obsolescence.

Planned obsolescence is:

People seem to trash this produce after six months...let's build it to last 5 so we can get more sales when they have to replace it sooner
Both are planned obsolescence.

Quote:
Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1]
From your Wiki source. The same source that goes on to say

Quote:
For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy sooner if they still want a functioning product.
You're describing one possible effect of PO, not PO itself. Both your example and mine are PO, which is designing a product to fail after a certain period of time, no matter what the reason. You seem to think that it must be in order to extract more money from customers to count as PO, when it doesn't (by your own sources' admission).
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  #230  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Both are planned obsolescence.



From your Wiki source. The same source that goes on to say



You're describing one possible effect of PO, not PO itself. Both your example and mine are PO, which is designing a product to fail after a certain period of time, no matter what the reason. You seem to think that it must be in order to extract more money from customers to count as PO, when it doesn't (by your own sources' admission).
Regarding that first quote from the wiki source, reposted here for posterity:

"Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] "

Personally I think you are misreading that once again if you think it means planned obsolescence refers to any instance of designing with a limited life in mind, for any reason, but fortunately we won't have to take my word for it as that exerpt is sourced; this is where it comes from:

http://www.computerinfoweb.com/compu...cs/Blu_Ray.php

And here you go, an exerpt from the source:

"Planned obsolescence, or built-in obsolescence if you are in the UK, is the decision by a manufacturer to purposely design, manufacture and distribute a consumer product to become obsolete or non-functional specifically to force the customer to buy the next generation of the product."

It clearly does not refer to manufacturing a shorter lived product with the intent of saving costs.
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  #231  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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pointing out grammatical mistakes is the lowest form of debate
as are pointing out speiling mistakes are lowest form of internet debate.
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  #232  
Old 08-13-2012, 06:57 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Regarding that first quote from the wiki source, reposted here for posterity:

"Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] "

Personally I think you are misreading that once again if you think it means planned obsolescence refers to any instance of designing with a limited life in mind, for any reason, but fortunately we won't have to take my word for it as that exerpt is sourced; this is where it comes from:

http://www.computerinfoweb.com/compu...cs/Blu_Ray.php

And here you go, an exerpt from the source:

"Planned obsolescence, or built-in obsolescence if you are in the UK, is the decision by a manufacturer to purposely design, manufacture and distribute a consumer product to become obsolete or non-functional specifically to force the customer to buy the next generation of the product."

It clearly does not refer to manufacturing a shorter lived product with the intent of saving costs.
That was the first definition or analysis I've read of the topic that described it as such and also the first posted in this thread. I will assume that other definitions are simply less comprehensive than this one (like the one on Wiki that leaves out the additional info) and concede the debate to you. *tip of the hat*
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  #233  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:10 PM
Nereth Nereth is offline
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
That was the first definition or analysis I've read of the topic that described it as such and also the first posted in this thread. I will assume that other definitions are simply less comprehensive than this one (like the one on Wiki that leaves out the additional info) and concede the debate to you. *tip of the hat*
...well there's something I didn't expect.

If you go back and read the other definitions perhaps with this new context though then maybe you'll see a similar pattern there. They almost all seem equally clear to me.
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  #234  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

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...well there's something I didn't expect.

If you go back and read the other definitions perhaps with this new context though then maybe you'll see a similar pattern there. They almost all seem equally clear to me.
I have no problem conceding if I see the evidence. Perhaps I'll see it inferred, but as far as being explicitly stated I haven't read that in the definitions here or elsewhere I've looked up. I assumed it was mainly to get customers to buy more, but I always thought it wasn't necessarily defined as such, just used as a tool to accomplish those ends. Your source was very explicit, though.

I suspect most other definitions leave it out for succinctness' sake, but frankly they're divorcing most of the meaning away from the word.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Does nobody realize how Apple is fucking them?

Nereth, you're a better man than me. I gave up on crazzyass a while ago. I couldn't even bring myself to read half of the posts that you two have made on this page, as for the past 5 pages you've both been saying the same thing twenty different ways, over and over.
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  #236  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:38 PM
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Nereth, you're a better man than me. I gave up on crazzyass a while ago. I couldn't even bring myself to read half of the posts that you two have made on this page, as for the past 5 pages you've both been saying the same thing twenty different ways, over and over.
A much better man. He actually posted something that backed up and proved his claims instead of insisting I believe him on good faith, unlike your lazy ass.
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